I have no idea if the heater worked. I doubt if it had been used at any time in the last25 years or more. One of the rooftop Advents had a resistance heating strip. I don't understand why someone who stops using something doesn't remove it then.
Converting to LiFePO4 batteries and Sailor Man's LiFePO4 Build
- Thread starter RF_Burns
- Start date
It is important to look an a coach as an entire organism and not just one isolated thing.
Direct current Air conditioning compressor can be run at various speeds, unlike the ubiquitous air conditioner. Therefore, they draw much smaller power. A motor running at 1/2 speed uses 1/4 of the power. Alternating current motor only run a full speed or they are shut down.
The demand for air conditioning also has to be addressed. Therefore, all the glass in my coach is having Llumar ceramic film added to the interior surface. The particular film I have selected only reduces visible light by 5% while reducing solar air conditioning load by 95%.
When an air conditioning compressor and fan is run almost continuously at low speeds, much more moisture is pulled from the air. Almost all air conditioned spaces are uncomfortably cold and damp. With this system, it runs at higher air temperatures with much lower humidity, drastically reducing the amount of energy required.
The YMGI mini-splits require 48v dc. I will address this in another post. Please do not focus on a single element of the design. This is only a small part of a comprehensive approach to first minimizing energy use, secondly addressing energy storage and thirdly addressing energy collection/charging.
One must consider the actual conditions, trying to match the actual demand for energy with actual solar radiation.
I am located in Florida, which means that I am closer to the equator than most of you. It is true that June 21 has the maximum solar radiation, but that does not match the time for maximum demand. Generally, air conditioning loads are maximized in the 6 weeks in August and September here. That is also true in other locations. It takes a long time to heat the Earth's mass. This is a delaying flywheel effect.
So as one approaches the autumn equinox, one faces the greatest cooling demand.
In Florida, it is spring when we collect the most solar radiation. It is the dry season with little moisture suspended in the air. In summer, it is sunny almost every day until about 4:00pm EDT here (Solar Time 2:00) and then the clouds and thunderstorms start. Tampa Bay is actually west of Detroit, so we are in the wrong time zone.
What seems to be never talked about is how to control demand. Air conditioning needs to be controlled by temperature and humidity. It is almost universally controller only by temperature.
Lowering the humidity in controlled air allows much higher air temperature and sensible load is directly related to the delta temperature between interior air and exterior air.
Sailor,
While your discussion is very interesting and I do really want to see how this all comes together. Are you instrumenting enough to measure what your solar collection actually is? Are you set up to cant the panels for maximum collection?
Major climate control systems all use some of the collected heat to re-warm the cooled air to get around the "getting slapped with a cold washcloth" effect of cooling only systems. Many people don't like it. While it sounds like you are installing pre-engineered systems, this might be a feature you could include.
I guess you aren't a celestial navigator. Tampa is actually about an half a degree EAST of Detroit.
Detroit should really be central time, but prior to the railroads, their primary communication was with Buffalo. But then Ohio is a southern state because they didn't have a good harbor (Toledo was still Michigan) and most of the communication was down the southern rivers.
Time zones were set up in the mid 19th century so railroads could have schedules that made sense. Prior to that any town along the way could have their own time. Some pick LAN and some just guessed. If you ever get to see a train schedule before time zones, it was a real trip.
Matt
While your discussion is very interesting and I do really want to see how this all comes together. Are you instrumenting enough to measure what your solar collection actually is? Are you set up to cant the panels for maximum collection?
Major climate control systems all use some of the collected heat to re-warm the cooled air to get around the "getting slapped with a cold washcloth" effect of cooling only systems. Many people don't like it. While it sounds like you are installing pre-engineered systems, this might be a feature you could include.
I guess you aren't a celestial navigator. Tampa is actually about an half a degree EAST of Detroit.
Detroit should really be central time, but prior to the railroads, their primary communication was with Buffalo. But then Ohio is a southern state because they didn't have a good harbor (Toledo was still Michigan) and most of the communication was down the southern rivers.
Time zones were set up in the mid 19th century so railroads could have schedules that made sense. Prior to that any town along the way could have their own time. Some pick LAN and some just guessed. If you ever get to see a train schedule before time zones, it was a real trip.
Matt
Sailor Man, I was thinking you intended to charge your system purely from solar.
I just reread your earlier posts and see that you will in fact have a generator to use to recharge batteries if needed. Looking forward to hearing from you as you put it all in place.
I just reread your earlier posts and see that you will in fact have a generator to use to recharge batteries if needed. Looking forward to hearing from you as you put it all in place.
The batteries will last much longer than you think. Remember that the SEER of these solar connected Mini-splits are close to 33. Your rooftop units probably have a functioning SEER of 5.5 to 7.0. Therefore, the YMGI units will use only about 18% to 25% of the electrical power that your units use.
Also, direct current spiral compressor almost never run a full speed like the single full speed alternating current ones do. They actually will probably run at 1/3 to 1/2 speed.
You are reading energy use at full speed.
I have experience at my residence. I have (2) Lennox Signature, Solar Ready direct current heat pumps (2 ton & 3 ton). they are the most efficient ducted air conditioning units on the planet (SEER 22 & 24). The air handlers are also dc. They are so quiet, you can't even hear them running. When I stand next to the compressor, I look down to see is the fan is turning.
My elevated 3 br house of 1,732sf (in Florida) + the unconditioned 1,300sf garage/storage/shop below and (2) plug-in hybrid cars used $1,550 of electrical power in 2020 (entire year and no solar).
Do not evaluate these dc heat pumps in the same way you do for the ones you are used to. The dc units will run much longer at very low speeds using much less power than the published numbers suggest.
Remember that the estimated use of the double dc compressors Idel Combi 195, driving a much larger capacity refrigerator/freezer than the one you have uses little energy. Indel estimates that it will require about 680 watts for an entire 24 hours and if you add additional compressor controllers to both compressors, you will save an additional 30% of energy use. Then it will only take 475 watts to run the 195 for 24 hours.
I am actually a celestial navigator and I made a mistake. I was trying to tell you that Solar noon here is about 1400 EDT. When one is trying to match solar radiation collection with actual energy use (driven by time of day), Here maximum energy use is between 1500 EDT and 2000 EDT.
Forget about trying to have solar panel normal to the solar radiation. Motorhomes are dynamic not static.
The most advantageous way to use solar power is to drastically limit energy use and it is much more cost effective.
I am a retired architect (80) and the first residence I designed in 1967 was a passive solar house. It had a perfect orientation and roof slope for heating the house. It was in New Jersey. Natural ventilation was used to cool the house reducing the need for air conditioning.
Two years after my best friend moved in, he called me up and said "Terry, I just noticed that that sun always pours into the house during the winter, but never in the summer. I replied "Really?" There was a long pause after that, then his reply. "You Did That"!
Sailorman, I was never concerned about the battery capacity or your appliances. I was just a bit worried that your solar might not be sufficient to recharge them in all circumstances. As I said I have since noticed that you plan to have a backup generator and I think that fills the gap.
I’m planning something slightly different too for my rebuild. Not quite as radical as yours though.
I am hoping to start sending my design drawings and photos soon. In the meantime, I would like to talk about how to make the installation of the best and most expensive LiPO4 batteries more affordable.
It has to do with taxes, grants, and life cycle costing.
I am not giving tax advise and you are most likely not Florida residents or even Americans, so run this by your accountant.
It is very important that you include solar panels in the installation of LiPO4 batteries.
Whether you ent or own your home, a GMC Motorhome is can be considered a second home or vacation home. It only has wheels. We treated our sailboat in the same fashion.
WIth a solar installation, all components, installation costs and engineering costs are subject to a 26% Federal Income Tax Credit (if your are itemizing). This includes the LiPO4 batteries. Not bad that the Feds are paying 28% of the coat of your LiPO4 installation. Sorry, lead acid battery users need not apply. At this time, you need to do it in 2021 or 2022. Maybe they will extend it again.
Also, the best LiPO4 batteries are good for about 3,000 recharges. Lead acid batteries, maybe 500 to 900 recharges if you don't kill them first. Let's see, the cost of (1) LiPO4 battery to the cost of (3) to (6) lead acid batteries.
Next, around the year 2001 Jim McGreevy was elected Governor of New Jersey. During the election campaign, two of his advisors came to my office because I was Chairman of the Energy Conservation Committee of the NJ Society of Architects. They wanted to know if there was any environmental issues that their candidate could use in the campaign. I thought that as long a person is not anxious to receive credit for his ideas, anything can be accomplished. Let someone else take the credit.
So I told them that solar energy installations are dreadfully expensive, but that government could at least do something that would cost the government very little to make solar installations more affordable.
First, no state sales tax on the entire installation of solar power systems. Secondly, the value of the solar installation will increase the property value of the building, almost dollar for dollar. It should be banned from the property value for the purpose of calculating the property tax.
They were very happy and it became McGreevy's idea and he used it to get elected. He then made this campaign promise law.
As you know, this is now almost universal.
So, if you install solar panels on your motorhome, connect batteries, heat pumps, whatever, all should exempt from sales tax.
Third, once the motorhome is considered a second home or vacation home, seek out all of the solar grants available in your area.
I hope this helps, although I tend to get very wordy and I apologize.
It has to do with taxes, grants, and life cycle costing.
I am not giving tax advise and you are most likely not Florida residents or even Americans, so run this by your accountant.
It is very important that you include solar panels in the installation of LiPO4 batteries.
Whether you ent or own your home, a GMC Motorhome is can be considered a second home or vacation home. It only has wheels. We treated our sailboat in the same fashion.
WIth a solar installation, all components, installation costs and engineering costs are subject to a 26% Federal Income Tax Credit (if your are itemizing). This includes the LiPO4 batteries. Not bad that the Feds are paying 28% of the coat of your LiPO4 installation. Sorry, lead acid battery users need not apply. At this time, you need to do it in 2021 or 2022. Maybe they will extend it again.
Also, the best LiPO4 batteries are good for about 3,000 recharges. Lead acid batteries, maybe 500 to 900 recharges if you don't kill them first. Let's see, the cost of (1) LiPO4 battery to the cost of (3) to (6) lead acid batteries.
Next, around the year 2001 Jim McGreevy was elected Governor of New Jersey. During the election campaign, two of his advisors came to my office because I was Chairman of the Energy Conservation Committee of the NJ Society of Architects. They wanted to know if there was any environmental issues that their candidate could use in the campaign. I thought that as long a person is not anxious to receive credit for his ideas, anything can be accomplished. Let someone else take the credit.
So I told them that solar energy installations are dreadfully expensive, but that government could at least do something that would cost the government very little to make solar installations more affordable.
First, no state sales tax on the entire installation of solar power systems. Secondly, the value of the solar installation will increase the property value of the building, almost dollar for dollar. It should be banned from the property value for the purpose of calculating the property tax.
They were very happy and it became McGreevy's idea and he used it to get elected. He then made this campaign promise law.
As you know, this is now almost universal.
So, if you install solar panels on your motorhome, connect batteries, heat pumps, whatever, all should exempt from sales tax.
Third, once the motorhome is considered a second home or vacation home, seek out all of the solar grants available in your area.
I hope this helps, although I tend to get very wordy and I apologize.
We all know how terrible Onan the Barbarian is. We this one is working very well (I had to replace the starting motor). The previous owner ran this to power the roof top air conditioners. Boy is it loud. The sound insulation doesn't help much. The Onan weighs 630 lbs.
This is the generator compartment now. I designed the tray, Cliff Golby built it and Tom Miller cleaned it and painted it. It is ready for the generator and LiPO4 Lithionics 51.6v 150ah Battery.
The Onan 6000 weighed 630lb. I will be saving between 500 and 600 lbs when finished here. That means more mpg.
The generator will only be run when the coach is parked and the slide is pulled out. This slide can support 500lbs and the generator is 108lbs.
On the right I am installing a 14" x 24" piece of white Starboard, meaning there is nothing here to rot. This will support the battery.
The Firman WHO03042DF uses both propane gasoline but is not connected to the motorhome tanks. I has its own 1.8 gal gas tank and is connected to the coach's lpg tank.
The Onan 6000 was loud, probably about 90db. This generator is 58db, about the the volume of human speech.
This is an inverter generator, so it will match speed and sound to attached load, among it very efficient. LPG max 2700w but is dedicated to only charge LiPO4 batteries.
Here is the generator almost ready to run. The generator has its own gas tank and starting battery. It costs about $850 and can be paired with a second one to double the output. It also provides direct current and ubs charging.
The total cost of this generator replacement (not including the LiPO4 battery is about $2,500. Not bad when comparing it with the normal Onan 6000 replacement projects I have seen.
Also, note the hold open struts to keep the lid secure.
Sailor,
For a good number of years, I was a part of Lambert Vector Assoc. We were posted as "Environment Energy Consultants". I saw a lot of junk and bad work done. We got paid to try to clean up some of it and serve as witness in suits of others. So, it is refreshing to see someone that has the whole picture and is making reasonable expectations. I do really want to see the final energy tallies when you have it all working.
Matt
For a good number of years, I was a part of Lambert Vector Assoc. We were posted as "Environment Energy Consultants". I saw a lot of junk and bad work done. We got paid to try to clean up some of it and serve as witness in suits of others. So, it is refreshing to see someone that has the whole picture and is making reasonable expectations. I do really want to see the final energy tallies when you have it all working.
Matt
Am I the only obsessive that started thinking.. "well with some sensors and hacks to the Electro-level"
I don't know if you can expand my drawing so I have attached a pdf file of this drawing. It will help you understand much of the concept of my upgrades. I am not interested in making a splashy upgrade to the exterior or interior. I only want to extend the life of the GMC Motorhome and extrapolate what the original designed would have done if they had access to the technologies that are available to us today.
So let us get started.
In the lower left hand corner, you can see the generator compartment. The Lithionics battery is shown correctly, but the only part of the Onan that hangs below the chassis is the muffler and exhaust. With the new Generator slide, nothing hangs below the chassis.
Moving to the right. you can see a through the bumper hitch. The original hitch was under the bumper and was much weaker. This hitch costs $519.95 and has 15,000 GTW Capacity.
More or less permanently attached to the new hitch is a RoadMaster #195125 Spare Tire Carrier. This allows the spare tire to be swung down to the ground and rolled to where it has to replace a deflated one. No lifting. Reverse this to store the flat tire.
The existing spare tire carrier is removed and the two plates, each with 4 bolts to the chassis are now available to support a custom stainless steel frame. The (2) YMGI 12,000 btu Mini-split heat pumps are mounted on this frame and extend slightly beyond the bumper. Now the heat pumps are directly support by the chassis and their weight, noise and vibration are eliminated from the body and interior. The center of gravity of the coach is significantly lowered.
Fir esthetic purposes an enclosure is being fashioned from a Den Hartog 300gal Low Profile Water tank which will be painted to match the coach's existing and original buttermilk color.
I will post the drawings of this enclosure later. I actually can fashion (2) enclosures from a single tank.
Because the enclosure extends over a foot beyond the coach's body, both taillights might no be seen from some locations. Therefore, two additional led taillights are fastened to the enclosure.
Also, all GMC Coaches lack the now mandatory center high rear brake light, I am installing a new LED strip tail light at the junction of the rear panel and the roof. No only will this light work as a brake light, it will also work as a true signal and warning signal.
All of the glass areas will have Llumar Stratis ceramic film laminated to the interior of the glass. This will eliminate 95% of the air conditioning solar radiation load that normally penetrate to the coach's interior.
This coach a customized "Cypress Country Interior" that I chose not to alter very much. I will address the interior later.
This was a Coachman model, so the LPG tank was not placed in the normal location behind the rear wheels on the passenger side. Instead the largest lpg available was placed in a new compartment on the passenger side behind the front tire and the door.
The old lpg compartment now provides significant exterior storage.
In another message, I will address:
Engine Compartment
Roof
Interior
This is how I am fashioning an enclosure for the (2) YMGI mini-split exterior units. When completed it will be painted "Buttercup" to match the coach's original color.
Unless I screw up, I will get two out of the tank. Anybody interested? If not, you can make one for yourself.
Now that you see it in 3D, look back at the drawing I sent you earlier.
Placing the mini-splits over the rear bumper means that they are almost totally out of the wind stream and the coach will be much closer to the original air drag coefficient of 0.30.
Off the roof comes the Ac units, storage box, tv antenna, rails, etc. Soon only semi-flexible solar panels will be on the roof with zero framing.
Now there is virtually zero weight on the roof and zero wind resistance. Simplicity is the goal. Better mpg. At speed, air resistance is the greatest load to be overcome by the 455.
Engineering contraptions to get the perfect solar panel orientation (not practical) only produce large wind resistance and any possible gain is far outweighed by making the coach as slippery as possible.
The KISS Method! Keep It Simple Stupid!
This is a somewhat complicated answer to your question. The coach is a Coachman interior and has been renovated perhaps 20 years ago, so the cabinetry is somewhat difference.
The Indel 195 Combi is larger than the ones found in the coach. When it is set in place there is space behind the unit.
Looking from the inside, behind the frig there is a tankless lpg hot water heater. The electrically powered 5 gal hot water heater under the bathroom sink has been removed.
On the right hand side there is a hand shower and faucet. Since there is a removable louver to the exterior, on can reach in and pull out the hand shower for an outside shower. One can also access the tankless hot water heater for service, if necessary.
There is 2"or so on either side of the combi when it is in place. I am laminating board insulation to the plywood to reduce the energy losses in the unit. I am also laminating board insulation to the top of the refrigerator.
Below the Combi I am installing an Indel Drawer 16 that will be used as a drawer freezer to hold a large quantity of ice.
If you look carefully at the drawing, you can see how the heat pulled from the refrigerator and freezer are exhausted from the coach.
This is what the interior looks like now.
The (2) Advent air condition distribution units will be gone.
I plan to install matching cypress panels with 24" LED flat screen tv behind them that drop down for viewing electrically.
Sailorman, those drawings are mighty impressive. Have you dimensioned the entire interior of the coach this way?
No yet. I am focusing on the various projects to bring the GMC Motorhome into 2021 technology.
In addition, I have been handicapped since 1955. losing my dominant right eye to a baseball. My brain change from a left hemisphere dominant human to a right + left hemisphere dominant human. This is normally called a renaissance brain.
I have found myself extremely affected by my handicap when trying to drive a GMC Motorhome. Even though I bought this one at the end of November, I am terrified of driving it and therefore, I have not done so!
When I sat in the driver's seat, I realized that it was much worse than driving a car or truck. With the driver's seat so very far to the left, and with only a left eye, I cannot see the rear view mirror at all while looking ahead. I can barely see the center mullion of the windshield. The passenger side Rampo mirror is out of the question.
Therefore, I have designed a 360° surveillance system for the Motorhome, which I will share with you, but perhaps it should be in another discussion.
I am adding (6) cameras and (6) monitors to the coach with out trashing the standard dashboard. I am using an old iPad that has gps and cellular capabilities for my navigation and entertainment needs while driving.
Please let me know if you think I should continue about it here.
After much consideration, the Federal Income Tax Credit and Florida Sales Tax Exemption have driven me further.
In Florida everyone needs electrical power to weather the Hurricaine Season that starts in 4 days.
Therefore, I had a rethink about the battery storage on the Motorhome. Getting a 26% Income Tax Credit was also quite powerful.
My original design of (1) 12v and (1) 51v LiPO4 battery is now being increased to (2) 12v and (2) 51v LiPO4 batteries. The original arrangement had the back up capacity of a single Tesla Powerwall. With the redesign, it is (2) Powerwalls.
Of course, the Lithionics batteries are far superior to the Tesla's.
This is enough to drive almost all of energy users in my house. I will need to add a new component that I wasn't certain existed, but they do.
It is a 120v/240v split phase inverter charger. My, that is a mouthful.
By putting the back up batteries for the house and motorhome in the motorhome, back up power goes wherever I go, and the Feds are subsidizing me in doing this.
In Florida everyone needs electrical power to weather the Hurricaine Season that starts in 4 days.
Therefore, I had a rethink about the battery storage on the Motorhome. Getting a 26% Income Tax Credit was also quite powerful.
My original design of (1) 12v and (1) 51v LiPO4 battery is now being increased to (2) 12v and (2) 51v LiPO4 batteries. The original arrangement had the back up capacity of a single Tesla Powerwall. With the redesign, it is (2) Powerwalls.
Of course, the Lithionics batteries are far superior to the Tesla's.
This is enough to drive almost all of energy users in my house. I will need to add a new component that I wasn't certain existed, but they do.
It is a 120v/240v split phase inverter charger. My, that is a mouthful.
By putting the back up batteries for the house and motorhome in the motorhome, back up power goes wherever I go, and the Feds are subsidizing me in doing this.
I'm thinking you should start a new thread under "Build Threads" or "House Systems" sub forums so others can easily find it.
Maybe the admin Christo can move your posting from here over to a new thread with more ease that reposting everything again.
Maybe the admin Christo can move your posting from here over to a new thread with more ease that reposting everything again.
On YouTube, Will Prowse is worth looking for on these subjects. Very knowledgeable, interesting videos. Anyway, I followed his recipe to build a 280 amp-hour LifePo4 battery for around $550. Yes, all the stuff is made in China, sadly, and you have to wait for things to arrive on the Slow Boat, but it's amazing how much storage you can get for not too much money using prismatic cells.
