Can I shoot the PPO?

[johnny]

I can't blame Neil, he always had Miguel fix whatever, and the fixes hold. But, his PO was a case. I'm still finding stuff. Removing the lunched
engine has shown me many more. Once I lift it out, there's at least two days of cleanup and removal of not needed wires and brackets and chit. Then
I'm gonna spray it down with Simple Green - since mineral spirits seem to be a nono any more - and hose it off. At least then future forays
underneath won't be quite so oily/greasy as they are now.

I've another for the engine gurus though, since this is the first one I managed to shut down still running - albeit sans oil pressure and a nasty
increasing metallic knock. I cleaned out the accessories yesterday, and now I find a quarter inch of end play on the crankshaft. I cut the oil
filter open, it had copper chaff in the inside fold of the pleats, not a great amount. No steel or aluminum. So I figure the copper is a failed or
failing bearing. But - a) where di all that endplay come from; and b) did it increase to the point it failed a rod bearing which then came apart?
Disassembly may be revealing but iff'n it isn't, why did the thing fail?

Inquiring minds wonder

--johnny
--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

 

[roy keen]

When my thrust bearing failed I attributed it to an extremely hard shifting transmisson while upshifting after climbing a steep grade.I had manny go
thru the trans and remove the nasty shift kit and kick down solenoid while I had the engine apart.
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook

 

[Jim Hupy]

My transmission guy calls B.S. on thrust transmitted through the torque
converter. There is at least a 1/2" of movement possible back and forth on
the lugs of the converter.
Jim Hupy

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019, 12:46 PM roy keen via Gmclist When my thrust bearing failed I attributed it to an extremely hard
> shifting transmisson while upshifting after climbing a steep grade.I had
> manny go
> thru the trans and remove the nasty shift kit and kick down solenoid while
> I had the engine apart.
> --
> Roy Keen
> Minden,NV
> 76 X Glenbrook
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[Ken H.]

Which effectively neutralizes the popular "ballooning torque converter"
myth. When I burned up two thrust bearings in the Cad500's, I did a lot of
research trying to find a rational cause. If there's any truth to the
"ballooning" myth, it's not an expanding TC, but a "flying balloon". That
is, if the difference in the effective area on the front of the TC is about
1-1/2 sq.in. greater than that on the rear, then a 100 psi hydraulic
pressure can create a 150 lbf forward on the crankshaft. Somewhere, IIRC,
I saw that the Chevy big block is designed to withstand 280 lbf -- I've
never seen even a guess for any other engine.

Knowing that the Cad500 is/was popular with air boaters, I got in touch
with an air boat builder. He said that most get away with direct drive
without any upgrade, but he adds a brass thrust washer to the #1 main. He
offered to send the material to upgrade mine, but I declined -- it SHOULD
NOT be necessary.

Since I never found a reason for the failure in my completely rebuilt
Cad500 or the immediate failure after the repair, I gave up on the whole
thing -- I replaced the engine, the torque converter and the transmission.
After about 50,000 miles on the "refreshed" engine, I've had no more
trouble. I tend to blame the torque converter (rebuilt by a local, 50
years in business, company), but I never had them tear down and inspect
it. Manny rebuilt the transmission during one of his visits and found
nothing suspicious in it.

So, I'm of no help in figuring out why thrust bearings fail.

Ken H.

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 5:18 PM James Hupy via Gmclist <

> My transmission guy calls B.S. on thrust transmitted through the torque
> converter. There is at least a 1/2" of movement possible back and forth on
> the lugs of the converter.
> Jim Hupy
>

 

[terry1]

Thrust bearing failure can be caused by:
1) Improper or warped flex plate
2) Improper torque converter for application
3) Accessories on front of engine not aligned properly or wrong pulleys used
4) Distorted connecting rods
5) constant pressure on clutch in manual transmission scenarios

I'm sure there are other pathways to thrust bearing failure, these are just the varieties I have come across.
--
Terry Kelpien

ASE Master Technician

73 Glacier 260

Smithfield, Va.

 

[jim kanomata1]

After going through 4 Cad 500 thrust bearing , an automatic trans instuctor
showed and explained that the trans line pressure will slide the converter
forward and put pressure on the thrust beating.
That is why Manny does not like the shift kit.
Yes, I was running a shift kit and the instructor knew it the moment he
took the pressure readings in all gears.
In fact they have improved the oiling method at the thrust in the last
several years .

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:01 PM Terry via Gmclist
wrote:

> Thrust bearing failure can be caused by:
> 1) Improper or warped flex plate
> 2) Improper torque converter for application
> 3) Accessories on front of engine not aligned properly or wrong pulleys
> used
> 4) Distorted connecting rods
> 5) constant pressure on clutch in manual transmission scenarios
>
> I'm sure there are other pathways to thrust bearing failure, these are
> just the varieties I have come across.
> --
> Terry Kelpien
>
> ASE Master Technician
>
> 73 Glacier 260
>
> Smithfield, Va.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

 

[johnny]

Well, the A/C belt was broken and caught between the fan and fan pulley. I don't see that as causing such havoc. The back two belts were fine. It's
ready to lift out now anyways. Alls I need is a couple of cousins to help me left the trolley beam in place. No way can I one - hand it. Once in, I
think I can one - hand the engine.

More surprises as I go. Mights well to fix all of them while there's room and access.

--johnny

--
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

 

[Jim Hupy]

I have broken 2 sets of belts on the same water pump. Both of them I shut
down really quickly and replaced the belts alongside the road. Months
later, the water pump bearings failed just driving down a straight freeway.
Did the previous belt failures and tangles cause the bearings to fail, or
was it just the thousands of miles of use, normal wear and tear? I cannot
really say. But, a spare water pump on board would have saved me the cost
of a tow and Judy's birthday spent overnight in a tow truck yard. Still
paying for that one. (Grin)
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

On Wed, Feb 13, 2019, 3:12 PM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <

> Well, the A/C belt was broken and caught between the fan and fan pulley.
> I don't see that as causing such havoc. The back two belts were fine. It's
> ready to lift out now anyways. Alls I need is a couple of cousins to help
> me left the trolley beam in place. No way can I one - hand it. Once in, I
> think I can one - hand the engine.
>
> More surprises as I go. Mights well to fix all of them while there's room
> and access.
>
> --johnny
>
> --
> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me
> in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[LarryW]

IMO, many of the thrust failures are a result of improper install of the half shells of the thrust mains during a rebuild. It may not seem like it
but there is often a little slop between the main thrust shells and the block main were the shells sit. You must place the shells in the block and the
main bearing caps. Then set the crank in the block mains. Put the main caps on and finger tighten the bolts. pull the thrust main bearing bolts to a
light tug...maybe 10ft lbs or so. Then take a dead blow hammer (Do NOT use a steel hammer for this) and strike the rear of the crank several times.
This will shove the two caps (the one in the block and the one in the thrust main cap) forward so that the two half shells of the thrust are aligned
with each other. Then tighten the bolts to specified torque. If you don't do this, you run the risk that if the half shells are not perfectly flush
with each other, when the crank moves forward (as it naturally will because of the .002 to .012 spec'd clearance) the crank thrust surface will only
be contact one of the half shells, starting the wear process. Once started the worn particles will quickly take out the thrust. JWIT
--
Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.

 

[jim kanomata1]

There are thrust bearings now that allow oil to weep out and avoid keeping
oil there to get so hot it cannot cushion.
I have diagrams if your interested.
Problem is that most machine shops think they know it all.

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 8:02 PM Larry via Gmclist
wrote:

> IMO, many of the thrust failures are a result of improper install of the
> half shells of the thrust mains during a rebuild. It may not seem like it
> but there is often a little slop between the main thrust shells and the
> block main were the shells sit. You must place the shells in the block and
> the
> main bearing caps. Then set the crank in the block mains. Put the main
> caps on and finger tighten the bolts. pull the thrust main bearing bolts to
> a
> light tug...maybe 10ft lbs or so. Then take a dead blow hammer (Do NOT use
> a steel hammer for this) and strike the rear of the crank several times.
> This will shove the two caps (the one in the block and the one in the
> thrust main cap) forward so that the two half shells of the thrust are
> aligned
> with each other. Then tighten the bolts to specified torque. If you don't
> do this, you run the risk that if the half shells are not perfectly flush
> with each other, when the crank moves forward (as it naturally will
> because of the .002 to .012 spec'd clearance) the crank thrust surface
> will only
> be contact one of the half shells, starting the wear process. Once started
> the worn particles will quickly take out the thrust. JWIT
> --
> Larry
> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> Menomonie, WI.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

 

[Ken H.]

Larry,

Misalignment of the thrust main bearings was DEFINITELY not the reason for
either of the two failures I had in quick succession. I was aware of that
necessity, and very careful to satisfy it.

Ken H.

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 11:02 PM Larry via Gmclist
wrote:

> IMO, many of the thrust failures are a result of improper install of the
> half shells of the thrust mains during a rebuild. It may not seem like it
> but there is often a little slop between the main thrust shells and the
> block main were the shells sit. You must place the shells in the block and
> the
> main bearing caps. Then set the crank in the block mains. Put the main
> caps on and finger tighten the bolts. pull the thrust main bearing bolts to
> a
> light tug...maybe 10ft lbs or so. Then take a dead blow hammer (Do NOT use
> a steel hammer for this) and strike the rear of the crank several times.
> This will shove the two caps (the one in the block and the one in the
> thrust main cap) forward so that the two half shells of the thrust are
> aligned
> with each other. Then tighten the bolts to specified torque. If you don't
> do this, you run the risk that if the half shells are not perfectly flush
> with each other, when the crank moves forward (as it naturally will
> because of the .002 to .012 spec'd clearance) the crank thrust surface
> will only
> be contact one of the half shells, starting the wear process. Once started
> the worn particles will quickly take out the thrust. JWIT
> --
> Larry
> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> Menomonie, WI.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[LarryW]

OH Ken,
Hope you don't think I was critical of your build. You and I talked about this and I know that you did this procedure right. I posted the comment to
make others aware of the potential problem. Sorry for the implication. Surely not intended.

> Larry,
>
> Misalignment of the thrust main bearings was DEFINITELY not the reason for
> either of the two failures I had in quick succession. I was aware of that
> necessity, and very careful to satisfy it.
>
> Ken H.
>
> On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 11:02 PM Larry via Gmclist

>
> > IMO, many of the thrust failures are a result of improper install of the
> > half shells of the thrust mains during a rebuild. It may not seem like it
> > but there is often a little slop between the main thrust shells and the
> > block main were the shells sit. You must place the shells in the block and
> > the
> > main bearing caps. Then set the crank in the block mains. Put the main
> > caps on and finger tighten the bolts. pull the thrust main bearing bolts to
> > a
> > light tug...maybe 10ft lbs or so. Then take a dead blow hammer (Do NOT use
> > a steel hammer for this) and strike the rear of the crank several times.
> > This will shove the two caps (the one in the block and the one in the
> > thrust main cap) forward so that the two half shells of the thrust are
> > aligned
> > with each other. Then tighten the bolts to specified torque. If you don't
> > do this, you run the risk that if the half shells are not perfectly flush
> > with each other, when the crank moves forward (as it naturally will
> > because of the .002 to .012 spec'd clearance) the crank thrust surface
> > will only
> > be contact one of the half shells, starting the wear process. Once started
> > the worn particles will quickly take out the thrust. JWIT
> > --
> > Larry
> > 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> > Menomonie, WI.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

--
Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.

 

[Ken H.]

Larry,

No, I didn't take your posting personally at all -- I just wanted to be
sure everyone understands that there are still other -- often unknown --
reasons for the failures.

Ken H.

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 8:04 AM Larry via Gmclist
wrote:

> OH Ken,
> Hope you don't think I was critical of your build. You and I talked about
> this and I know that you did this procedure right. I posted the comment to
> make others aware of the potential problem. Sorry for the implication.
> Surely not intended.
>
>

> > Larry,
> >
> > Misalignment of the thrust main bearings was DEFINITELY not the reason
> for
> > either of the two failures I had in quick succession. I was aware of
> that
> > necessity, and very careful to satisfy it.
> >
> > Ken H.
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 11:02 PM Larry via Gmclist

> >
> > > IMO, many of the thrust failures are a result of improper install of
> the
> > > half shells of the thrust mains during a rebuild. It may not seem
> like it
> > > but there is often a little slop between the main thrust shells and
> the
> > > block main were the shells sit. You must place the shells in the
> block and
> > > the
> > > main bearing caps. Then set the crank in the block mains. Put the main
> > > caps on and finger tighten the bolts. pull the thrust main bearing
> bolts to
> > > a
> > > light tug...maybe 10ft lbs or so. Then take a dead blow hammer (Do
> NOT use
> > > a steel hammer for this) and strike the rear of the crank several
> times.
> > > This will shove the two caps (the one in the block and the one in the
> > > thrust main cap) forward so that the two half shells of the thrust are
> > > aligned
> > > with each other. Then tighten the bolts to specified torque. If you
> don't
> > > do this, you run the risk that if the half shells are not perfectly
> flush
> > > with each other, when the crank moves forward (as it naturally will
> > > because of the .002 to .012 spec'd clearance) the crank thrust
> surface
> > > will only
> > > be contact one of the half shells, starting the wear process. Once
> started
> > > the worn particles will quickly take out the thrust. JWIT
> > > --
> > > Larry
> > > 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> > > Menomonie, WI.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GMCnet mailing list
> > > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
> --
> Larry
> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> Menomonie, WI.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[jim kanomata1]

In know that Dick Patterson told me that if there is even a small scratch
on the thrust of the crank, he will not install that crank.
Larry has faced few issues in this area and I can agree as to how important
it is.

On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 5:59 AM Ken Henderson via Gmclist <

> Larry,
>
> No, I didn't take your posting personally at all -- I just wanted to be
> sure everyone understands that there are still other -- often unknown --
> reasons for the failures.
>
> Ken H.
>
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 8:04 AM Larry via Gmclist >

>
> > OH Ken,
> > Hope you don't think I was critical of your build. You and I talked about
> > this and I know that you did this procedure right. I posted the comment
> to
> > make others aware of the potential problem. Sorry for the implication.
> > Surely not intended.
> >
> >

> > > Larry,
> > >
> > > Misalignment of the thrust main bearings was DEFINITELY not the reason
> > for
> > > either of the two failures I had in quick succession. I was aware of
> > that
> > > necessity, and very careful to satisfy it.
> > >
> > > Ken H.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 11:02 PM Larry via Gmclist

> > >
> > > > IMO, many of the thrust failures are a result of improper install of
> > the
> > > > half shells of the thrust mains during a rebuild. It may not seem
> > like it
> > > > but there is often a little slop between the main thrust shells and
> > the
> > > > block main were the shells sit. You must place the shells in the
> > block and
> > > > the
> > > > main bearing caps. Then set the crank in the block mains. Put the
> main
> > > > caps on and finger tighten the bolts. pull the thrust main bearing
> > bolts to
> > > > a
> > > > light tug...maybe 10ft lbs or so. Then take a dead blow hammer (Do
> > NOT use
> > > > a steel hammer for this) and strike the rear of the crank several
> > times.
> > > > This will shove the two caps (the one in the block and the one in
> the
> > > > thrust main cap) forward so that the two half shells of the thrust
> are
> > > > aligned
> > > > with each other. Then tighten the bolts to specified torque. If you
> > don't
> > > > do this, you run the risk that if the half shells are not perfectly
> > flush
> > > > with each other, when the crank moves forward (as it naturally will
> > > > because of the .002 to .012 spec'd clearance) the crank thrust
> > surface
> > > > will only
> > > > be contact one of the half shells, starting the wear process. Once
> > started
> > > > the worn particles will quickly take out the thrust. JWIT
> > > > --
> > > > Larry
> > > > 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> > > > Menomonie, WI.
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > GMCnet mailing list
> > > > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > > > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GMCnet mailing list
> > > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> > --
> > Larry
> > 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> > Menomonie, WI.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502