Cams and how to get into trouble fast

[thomas g. warner]

Patrick read Mondellos technical literature. Mondello designs them, has
them ground and than tests them in his own engines. And starting just
anywhere leads to trouble, in fact could be big trouble. If you don't know
how the cams are ground you are shooting in the dark. And remember all of
Mondellos cams are dual pattern profiles with a different lobe center on the
intake and exhaust lobes.

Mondello further cautions " We do not want our camshafts installed in your
engine by the lobe center method, because your cam timing tag is showing a
lobe separation figure."

>>
>> Got to be careful in comparing cams.
>
>Agreed, but ya' gotta' start somewhere...
>
>> Mondello does not grind his cams like other cam
>> grinders
>
>Actually, Mondello doesn't grind cams at all. I believe that Arch noted
>this is an Engle cam sold by Mondello.
>
>Patrick
>
>

 

[patrick flowers]

Well Tom, guess what - I have Mondello's Tech Manual and catalog. I
have no doubt that he was involved with the design of many(if not all)
the cams he sells. However, nowhere in this literature do I see a claim
that his cams are ground any different that anyone elses. The
admonition to degree the cam based on opening is common sense to anyone
that's built an engine and has nothing to do with how the cam is
ground. The opening event is much more definitive than the lobe center
as a reference point. There's nothing unusual about different lobe
profiles between the intake and exhaust.

BTW, it's no secret that Engle grinds his cams as page 35 of his catalog
has a picture of an Engle cam tag opposite the cam selection table.

Lastly, don't assume because I investigate other options that I don't
think Mondello sells a good product. I just prefer to think for myself.

Patrick

>
> Patrick read Mondellos technical literature. Mondello designs them, has
> them ground and than tests them in his own engines. And starting just
> anywhere leads to trouble, in fact could be big trouble. If you don't know
> how the cams are ground you are shooting in the dark. And remember all of
> Mondellos cams are dual pattern profiles with a different lobe center on the
> intake and exhaust lobes.
>
> Mondello further cautions " We do not want our camshafts installed in your
> engine by the lobe center method, because your cam timing tag is showing a
> lobe separation figure."
- --
Patrick Flowers
Mailtoatrick

The GMC Motorhome Page
http://www.gmcmotorhome.com

 

[thomas g. warner]

If you have his technical manual Patrick I believe if you look on page 16,
7th,8th and 9th lines, you will find the information you need. Its very
clear that mondellos cams are ground differently, since he tells you how not
to degree them. In addition, it is not common sense that one should degree
a cam like you describe since there are all levels of experience on this
forum. Many people are interested in learning the correct way to identify
different cams and maybe even how to degree them. Furthermore I may be
incorrect but my understanding was that this forum was for all levels of
experience. Have the rules changed?

Problem is Patrick when some people think for themselves( and this of course
excludes you) they get into trouble since they know far less than they think
they do. Thats one of the wonderful things about this net. Make a statement
and we will get a 100 ideas and opinions. Sooner of later the truth will
come out.

Lets try to keep this on track so that everyone can learn. I am not
interested in arguing about technical details. however I will discuss them
with you.

Tom



>Well Tom, guess what - I have Mondello's Tech Manual and catalog. I
>have no doubt that he was involved with the design of many(if not all)
>the cams he sells. However, nowhere in this literature do I see a claim
>that his cams are ground any different that anyone elses. The
>admonition to degree the cam based on opening is common sense to anyone
>that's built an engine and has nothing to do with how the cam is
>ground. The opening event is much more definitive than the lobe center
>as a reference point. There's nothing unusual about different lobe
>profiles between the intake and exhaust.
>
>BTW, it's no secret that Engle grinds his cams as page 35 of his catalog
>has a picture of an Engle cam tag opposite the cam selection table.
>
>Lastly, don't assume because I investigate other options that I don't
>think Mondello sells a good product. I just prefer to think for myself.
>
>Patrick
>

>>
>> Patrick read Mondellos technical literature. Mondello designs them, has
>> them ground and than tests them in his own engines. And starting just
>> anywhere leads to trouble, in fact could be big trouble. If you don't know
>> how the cams are ground you are shooting in the dark. And remember all of
>> Mondellos cams are dual pattern profiles with a different lobe center on the
>> intake and exhaust lobes.
>>
>> Mondello further cautions " We do not want our camshafts installed in your
>> engine by the lobe center method, because your cam timing tag is showing a
>> lobe separation figure."
>--
>Patrick Flowers
>Mailtoatrick
>
>The GMC Motorhome Page
>http://www.gmcmotorhome.com
>
>

 

[blank]

>
> If you have his technical manual Patrick I believe if you
> look on page 16, 7th,8th and 9th lines, you will find the
> information you need. Its very clear that mondellos cams
> are ground differently, since he tells you how not to
> degree them.

Well Tom, I've read that section several times and I can't come to that
conclusion. The lines you reference are:

"Nearly all of our camshafts are ground on dual
pattern profiles with a different lobe center
on the intake & exhaust lobes. We do not want
our camshafts installed in your engine by the
lobe center method because your cam timing tag
is showing a lobe separation figure. Always
use the opening and closing events on your
timing tag to degree your camshaft."

I see nothing there claiming his cams are ground differently. As I said
before, different lobe profiles for intake and exhaust is the norm, not the
exception. I read this as Joe giving excellent advice on the correct way to
degree a cam.

> In addition, it is not common sense that one should
> degree a cam like you describe since there are all
> levels of experience on this forum. Many people are
> interested in learning the correct way to identify
> different cams and maybe even how to degree them.
> Furthermore I may be incorrect but my understanding
> was that this forum was for all levels of experience.
> Have the rules changed?

That's funny Tom. You're the one implying "Do it like Mondello says, no
questions asked" and then you come up with this gem. If all we needed were
the guru's, then this forum would be unnecessary. No the rules have not
changed and that's why we continue to ask questions on topics that you feel
were settled long ago.

> Problem is Patrick when some people think for
> themselves(and this of course excludes you) they
> get into trouble since they know far less
> than they think they do.

Tom, do you not see the conflict between the two statements above? On one
hand, you defend this forum as an educational resource, but in the next
breath you're stating how some people shouldn't think for themselves.
That's the major difference between us Tom - I believe people should have
the freedom think for themselves, assess their own level of expertise and
yes, make mistakes. Mistakes are part of the experience process and, if you
decide to strike out alone into uncharted waters, they are to be expected.
Some people like to wade and others prefer to swim in the deep end - it's
not my job to evaluate how well they can swim, and I'm not gonna' drain the
pool to wading depth to keep it "safe" for everyone.

> Thats one of the wonderful things about this net.
> Make a statement and we will get a 100 ideas and
> opinions. Sooner of later the truth will come out.

Ah, but it also requires that you occasionally face your version of the
"truth" being shot down.

> Lets try to keep this on track so that everyone can
> learn. I am not interested in arguing about technical
> details. however I will discuss them with you.

Sounds good to me,
Patrick

 

[thomas g. warner]

Patrick you win, I have no time for arguing, but you should read it one more
time. The operative words are 1)dual profile and 2) different lobe
centers. I honestly do not know what your goal is, since there is nothing
added in your post except argumentitive jabs? Can't understand how anyone
would want someone to strike out on unchartered waters, do it incorrectlty
and maybe waste thousands of dollars when the information is available.

For those that want the information and do not know it all yet, the
following may prove helpful to you.

How to install and degree your new camshaft
http://www.amotion.com/tech/caminst.html

How to select a cam http://www.amotion.com/amcams.html

Installation tips http://www.engineparts.com/tech/install.html

heres some more selection guides http://www.engineparts.com/tech/select.html

>>
>> If you have his technical manual Patrick I believe if you
>> look on page 16, 7th,8th and 9th lines, you will find the
>> information you need. Its very clear that mondellos cams
>> are ground differently, since he tells you how not to
>> degree them.
>
>Well Tom, I've read that section several times and I can't come to that
>conclusion. The lines you reference are:
>
> "Nearly all of our camshafts are ground on dual
> pattern profiles with a different lobe center
> on the intake & exhaust lobes. We do not want
> our camshafts installed in your engine by the
> lobe center method because your cam timing tag
> is showing a lobe separation figure. Always
> use the opening and closing events on your
> timing tag to degree your camshaft."
>
>I see nothing there claiming his cams are ground differently. As I said
>before, different lobe profiles for intake and exhaust is the norm, not the
>exception. I read this as Joe giving excellent advice on the correct way to
>degree a cam.
>
>> In addition, it is not common sense that one should
>> degree a cam like you describe since there are all
>> levels of experience on this forum. Many people are
>> interested in learning the correct way to identify
>> different cams and maybe even how to degree them.
>> Furthermore I may be incorrect but my understanding
>> was that this forum was for all levels of experience.
>> Have the rules changed?
>
>That's funny Tom. You're the one implying "Do it like Mondello says, no
>questions asked" and then you come up with this gem. If all we needed were
>the guru's, then this forum would be unnecessary. No the rules have not
>changed and that's why we continue to ask questions on topics that you feel
>were settled long ago.
>
>> Problem is Patrick when some people think for
>> themselves(and this of course excludes you) they
>> get into trouble since they know far less
>> than they think they do.
>
>Tom, do you not see the conflict between the two statements above? On one
>hand, you defend this forum as an educational resource, but in the next
>breath you're stating how some people shouldn't think for themselves.
>That's the major difference between us Tom - I believe people should have
>the freedom think for themselves, assess their own level of expertise and
>yes, make mistakes. Mistakes are part of the experience process and, if you
>decide to strike out alone into uncharted waters, they are to be expected.
>Some people like to wade and others prefer to swim in the deep end - it's
>not my job to evaluate how well they can swim, and I'm not gonna' drain the
>pool to wading depth to keep it "safe" for everyone.
>
>> Thats one of the wonderful things about this net.
>> Make a statement and we will get a 100 ideas and
>> opinions. Sooner of later the truth will come out.
>
>Ah, but it also requires that you occasionally face your version of the
>"truth" being shot down.
>
>> Lets try to keep this on track so that everyone can
>> learn. I am not interested in arguing about technical
>> details. however I will discuss them with you.
>
>Sounds good to me,
>Patrick
>
>

 

[thomas g. warner]

Arch I have not really physically looked at a mondello cam and know nothing
more than what he says in his technical literature. If you have a mondello
cam he will give you everything you need to correctly install it and break
it in.

>In a message dated 10/14/99 9:14:38 AM Central Daylight Time, warner
>writes:
>
>> For those that want the information and do not know it all yet, the
>> following may prove helpful to you.
>>
>Tom
>
>WOW now that is some good stuff. It will take me awhile to get
>through it all. My one question is this. Since Mondello cams are
>DIFFERENT will the procedures listed work for them? TIA
>
>Take Care
>Arch
>
>

 

[zak zehnacker]

Arch,

Are your rockers Crane Magnum roller tip adjustable rockers, or
are they full on roller rockers? If they are the roller tip ones, Crane
has the kit (studs, guideplates, pushrods, etc) listed for the Olds 455, so
I'm sure you would have found it on your own. I know that Mondello does
sell these rockers. He also sells full on rollers as well, so I just want
to find out which type you got.

Zak

>Patrick
>
>Darn Patrick you must have the same problem I do. I must admit that
>when I get inside of an engine I tend to get anal. I want to do it right.
>I had so many people giving me advice that I was loosing my mind. I
>took the solution I tell people not to take. I solved the problem with my
>wallet not my head. I called Joe and said what do I need? I paid for
>what he knows. I paid $1000 to do the upper end. Thats about $350
>above what it would have cost if I had known all the secrets. Thats why
>I posted what I had received. But I will admit I probably would have never
>gotten to the adjustable Chevy rocker arms. I wanted adjustable rockers
>and I got them-----just cost me some. I am not really even upset about
>this one. I did not have a clue so I was willing to pay to get it done right.
>My friend was telling me that that cam and springs had to match. He
>runs his 455 at a whole lot higher RPMs than I ever will so he was not
>sure of the cam we needed. He even thinks the cam I got is a little hairy
>for something this big. Oh well the goodies are all going to a speed shop
>in the next state over in the morning. We shall see. I will keep you all
>informed.
>
>Take Care
>Arch 76 GB IL

 

[bartz paul]

Don't you love all those unsubstantiated claims???????

Paul Bartz

From: Gcbr [mailto:Gcbr]
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 12:28 PM

In a message dated 10/14/99 11:06:21 AM Central Daylight Time,

> more than what he says in his technical literature. If you have a mondello
> cam he will give you everything you need to correctly install it and
break
> it in.

Tom

I do have a Mondello cam JM-16-18. The only thing that came with it
was one sided copy from Eagle Cams. I spent nearly $1000 with him
and there is not one instruction with any of it.

 

[zak zehnacker]

Arch,

Yes, I would agree that the roller tips are the better choice for
reliability over the full on rollers. Since it sounds like your rockers
are in fact the Crane Magnums (which is also what we got), I question your
calling them Chevy rockers. Crane offers them for the directly for the
Olds 455 engine. I am just trying to figure out what you got. Maybe they
also fit a Chevy? Did yours come in a kit from Crane that included the
pushrods, guideplates, etc, or did that stuff come separately. Maybe
Mondello uses just the rockers and supplies pushrods, etc from a different
source. In this case, he might have to order the rockers as "Chevy"
instead of "Olds" (assuming the rockers are actually the same) to get just
the rockers at a cheaper price.

Zak

>Zak
>
>I got the roller tipped rockers. They are adjustable. I did not get the
>needle bearing full rockers. That was getting a little pricey. I also
>did knot how they would hold up long-term. Did I do the right thing?
>
>Take Care
>Arch

 

[zak zehnacker]

Arch,

Thanks. That is good information. Others here will now know what you
learned. Anyone else that wants this type of rocker can now pick up a Jegs
catalog and order the kit and know they are getting the same thing Mondello
uses. I sure hope nobody tries to say that Mondello gets only the cream of
the Crane rocker crop .

Thanks,
Zak

>It was all in a kit. I am sorry for the off hand remark. They do look
>like Chevy rockers though. Oh well yes one big kit---looked up Crane
>would have been cheaper that way-----guess I paid for what Mondello
>knows that I dont. Its ok there was so much confusion I decided to pay
>to get it right. Think I did.
>
>Take Care
>Arch PS thanks for confirming my decision on full on rollers.