Brake modifications

gary j zingle

New member
Jun 5, 1999
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Markus wrote

"On going to 80mm front calipers. You will increase pad
pressure to the rotor, at the expense of more pedal travel.
When you go to a larger master cyl., the increase in
pressure will dissappear. There is a straight mechanical
relationship from the pedal movement to the caliper
pressure. When you have vacuum assist, the int. =

manifold vacuum will help to minimize pedal travel.

That's right, the vacuum assist isn't there to raise
the fluid pressure, but to lessen pedal travel. Of
course they are the same thing, but in reality there
should be some trade-off here, the device that sets
ultimate pad pressure is the size of the brake
booster's diaphram and you leg muscles."

Markus I agree with your comments on increasing
caliper/master cylinder sizes however I don't know
that I can agree with your comments regarding the
vacuum assist. It is my understanding that the vacuum
assist simply makes it easier for the driver to create
pressure on the fluid in the master cylinder. If this is true
then the only way the booster can minimuze pedal travel
is because of allowing for the use of different caliper/master
cylinders.

" Does the 80mm calipers use bigger pads, that would help."

153 pads are a larger version of the pads used on the GM. I
used them with the 80mm calipers but I believe they could
also be used with the stock ones.

"What about going to a Hydrolic Brake Booster like what's in a '83 diesel=
=

suburban. I have 2 suburbans, one with hydrolic and one with a vacuum
boost. =

The hydrolic booster can lock the wheels up at any speed. The vacuum boos=
t =

can't. Has anyone tried this. I've thought about swapping boosters to see=
=

what happens. As far as rear rotors, it seams like a lot of trouble for =

little gain. How has this conversion worked out for you all? Did it reall=
y =

help?"

I suspect the hydralic booster might help although size and
space may be an issue. After looking at the work Arch went
through to change his booster I figured I would leave that one
for the moment.

Regards

Gary Zingle
 
Keep in mind that bigger pads don't really buy you much. The caliper exerts
a given force on the pad - a larger pad spreads the force out, it can't
increase it. The only real advantage to larger pads is longer pad life.

Patrick

>
> Markus wrote
>
> " Does the 80mm calipers use bigger pads, that would help."
>
>
> 153 pads are a larger version of the pads used on the GM. I
> used them with the 80mm calipers but I believe they could
> also be used with the stock ones.
 
Tom,

The additional force is due only to the larger piston size. The pads only
transmit the force produced over their effective area.

Patrick

>
> Boy you guys are really getting this confused. Larger 80MM
> calipers and resultant pads produce more force against the
> rotor with the same PSI from the master cylinder
 
Incorrect Tom,

I was corrected on this subject several months back and upon some research
found that I was indeed wrong at that time. Friction is a factor of
coefficient of friction and force only. Area cancels out in the equation as
the force is just spread over a larger area.

This is one example where the intuitive answer is the wrong one.

Patrick

>
> Patrick friction against the rotor and thus stopping power is
> a result of force against the pad times the coefficent of
> friction times the area of the pad in contact with the rotor
>
>

> >Tom,
> >
> >The additional force is due only to the larger piston size.
> The pads only
> >transmit the force produced over their effective area.
> >
> >Patrick
> >

> >>
> >> Boy you guys are really getting this confused. Larger 80MM
> >> calipers and resultant pads produce more force against the
> >> rotor with the same PSI from the master cylinder
> >
> >
>
 
>.... As far as rear rotors, it seams like a lot of trouble for
>little gain. How has this conversion worked out for you all? Did it really
>help?"

For what its worth... I was thinking about the disc brake conversion for=20
the rear when I decided to try using larger (1 1/8") rear slave cylinders.=
=20
Its a low cost easy to install upgrade. Nothing changes but the wheel=20
cylinders and they are exact bolt-in replacements. I am in my second year=20
with the larger cylinders on all four rears and I must say that the=20
improvement is well worth it.

I was also planning on doing the hydraulic boost upgrade. I had even=20
purchased the parts. But after installing the larger rear cylinders I=20
decided to postpone doing anything. I may still install the hydraulic boost=
=20
if the vacuum boost fails but for now I am keeping the stock system.

If anyone is interested, here are the part numbers that I have for the=20
larger rear cylinders...

Bendix - 29634
CarQuest - EW86000
Wagner - FD-108361
Unknown - K27-747

Dave
Ann Arbor, MI.
73 Sequoia (26'/455/HEI/TBI/160=B0/3.42)
 
Tom,

Do you not read these things before you post? Force is force -- friction is
friction. One doesn't replace the other. Gary and Pat are both dead on. Just
my opinion of course (based on 40+ years as a practicing design engineer).

If you're going to constantly challenge ( which is useful and fine with me)
please don't confuse the discussion by changing the context -- red herrings are
useless in determining facts. Force on the disc is completely independent of
the size of the pad and its coefficient of friction. The force would be the
same if the pad was made of peanut butter or steel, or twice the size. Note I
did not mention caliper nor cylinder.

Regards,
Steve

> Patrick friction against the rotor and thus stopping power is a result of
> force against the pad times the coefficent of friction times the area of the
> pad in contact with the rotor
>

> >Tom,
> >
> >The additional force is due only to the larger piston size. The pads only
> >transmit the force produced over their effective area.
> >
> >Patrick
> >

> >>
> >> Boy you guys are really getting this confused. Larger 80MM
> >> calipers and resultant pads produce more force against the
> >> rotor with the same PSI from the master cylinder
> >
> >