Another example of different wheel tracks front to rear

jerry work

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Feb 3, 2003
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In volume 26, number 3 edition of Automobile Quarterly (third quarter of 1988) there is an interesting story about auto designer Alex Tremulis, best known as the designer of the Tucker. He was also very influential in aircraft designs as well as several interesting automotive designs. Prior to his time at Tucker, he became the lead designer at Cord-Auburn-Dusenberg. While there he did a mild redesign of Gordon Buehrig’s Cord 810 which became the supercharged Cord 812. Many of you will recall that the front wheel drive Cord, arguably the best handling car of the 1930s, had the front wheels closer together than the rear wheels by almost the same percentage as the difference in track on our GMCs. Well, when Tremulis moved to Tucker he designed that rear wheel drive car with the front track set at 63” while the rear track was set at 65”.

The sharp eyed of you might also know that Tremulis was the person who initially set the land speed record for motorhomes taking a 26’ Travoy motorhome to a record speed of 97.6mph in 1970. That front wheel drive motorhome also used the Olds 455 with 425 auto transmission.

Jerry
Jerry Work
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR

glwork
http://jerrywork.com
 
Jerry,

I happened to ask John Sharpe why he thought the front track of the GMC was set narrower than the rear and John noted that they could have done that to reduce the turning radius.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Gerald Work
Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2018 1:09 PM
To: GMC Motor Home Post
Subject: [GMCnet] Another example of different wheel tracks front to rear

In volume 26, number 3 edition of Automobile Quarterly (third quarter of 1988) there is an interesting story about auto designer Alex Tremulis, best known as the designer of the Tucker. He was also very influential in aircraft designs as well as several interesting automotive designs. Prior to his time at Tucker, he became the lead designer at Cord-Auburn-Dusenberg. While there he did a mild redesign of Gordon Buehrig’s Cord 810 which became the supercharged Cord 812. Many of you will recall that the front wheel drive Cord, arguably the best handling car of the 1930s, had the front wheels closer together than the rear wheels by almost the same percentage as the difference in track on our GMCs. Well, when Tremulis moved to Tucker he designed that rear wheel drive car with the front track set at 63” while the rear track was set at 65”.

The sharp eyed of you might also know that Tremulis was the person who initially set the land speed record for motorhomes taking a 26’ Travoy motorhome to a record speed of 97.6mph in 1970. That front wheel drive motorhome also used the Olds 455 with 425 auto transmission.

Jerry
 
and reduce torque steer.. does the toranado & Eldorados have narrower front track?

it may also be narrower to reduce a front end understeer/push condition since the rear is very stable and wants to track straight ahead at all times
with the tandem set up.
 
I suspect the front track was narrower because the control arms (from the
Toro) were shorter, and the width of the frame was controlled by the rear
suspension.

They usually control understeer by adjusting the camber and steering toe,
and by the roll stiffness. There is no added rear roll stiffness in the
original GMC design, which will promote understeer. Understeer is good for
vehicles driven by amateurs, but most cars of that era had too much
understeer.

As the body rolls, the rear on the GMC changes camber. The wheels stay
aligned with the frame, not the road. That will increase slip angles a bit.

I don’t think the change in track causes the problems people have
attributed to it over the years (rut-tracking, etc.), andi suspect it was
an outcome of the design that they determined did not require the added
cost of correcting.

Rick “these guys were smart, but they were still constrained by available
parts” Denney

> and reduce torque steer.. does the toranado & Eldorados have narrower
> front track?
>
> it may also be narrower to reduce a front end understeer/push condition
> since the rear is very stable and wants to track straight ahead at all times
> with the tandem set up.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
 
Rich,

I agree the width of the long rails was controlled by the rear suspension, however, why couldn't GMC have widened the front frame where the upper and lower control arms attach to put the front wheels in line with the rear?

Note how the front frame is narrowed just in front of where it bolts to the long frame rails:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/77-royale/p59274-galvanized-stub-frame.html

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Richard Denney
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 7:23 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Another example of different wheel tracks front to rear

I suspect the front track was narrower because the control arms (from the
Toro) were shorter, and the width of the frame was controlled by the rear
suspension.

They usually control understeer by adjusting the camber and steering toe,
and by the roll stiffness. There is no added rear roll stiffness in the
original GMC design, which will promote understeer. Understeer is good for
vehicles driven by amateurs, but most cars of that era had too much
understeer.

As the body rolls, the rear on the GMC changes camber. The wheels stay
aligned with the frame, not the road. That will increase slip angles a bit.

I don’t think the change in track causes the problems people have
attributed to it over the years (rut-tracking, etc.), andi suspect it was
an outcome of the design that they determined did not require the added
cost of correcting.

Rick “these guys were smart, but they were still constrained by available
parts” Denney

Rick Denney
 
Good answer Rick,

The GMC MotorHome front vs. rear track DESIGN had nothing to do with vehicle handling dynamics, only as they had resulted from the original Toronado
design.

The GMC MH design resulted from:
1-"REAR" the unique rear suspension design specifications.
2-"FRONT" The cost restraints to use as many existing parts as possible. Increasing the front tread would have required a number of new parts (you can
pick what you would change). There was a very strong effort to control costs and minimize new part designs, impacted especially when they decided that
21' & 24' coach lengths were extended to 23' & 26' (heavier). As can be seen in the 1973 coaches with a number of recalls* replacing lighter duty
parts with heavier duty ones.

Yes, they could have designed the track differently, but looking at it in 1972, I presume they viewed it as quite adequate (4 other MHs using the
design, Toronado usage, etc.) Who would have thought we would be discussing this over 40 years later :^)

* rear spindles
bearings
brakes
shocks
air bags
A arm reinforcements
etc.

Bill

--
Bill Bryant
1976~PB
1914 Ford
1965 Corvette
GMC MH History CD & GMC Showroom DVD
Workprint DVD GMC development 11-70 to 3-71
http://bdub.net/billbryant/
 
its a very unique chassis, I do not think the track geometry is as simple as some suggest.

I also doubt that the usual ways to combat understeer would completely apply here either. how many other factory made tandem rear axle chassis are
front wheel drive?

theres some old video footage that someone put up on youtube from the '70s of the GMC being driven at their proving grounds/testing facility into
various maneuvers to highlight the handling capabilities. it does really well and also seems that they did more than just throw some parts together
and hope for the best. at least they had the resources available to them to do better than that so why wouldnt they?
 
I didn’t mean to suggest that they throw parts together and hope for the
best. I’m sure they did real design work, developed a general set of
requirements, found the parts in current production that would meet those
requirements (based on a vast range of driving conditions—and bias-ply
tires), verified their design through prototype testing, cost-engineered it
to minimize production costs, rinse and repeat until they converged on a
design that would be approved. That is far different than designing the
suspension from a clean sheet of paper.

I am just not prepared to believe that the track difference was a design
input that became a requirement, versus a design outcome that was
acceptable because it didn’t violate any design requirements.

Rick “and then radial tires came along” Denney

> its a very unique chassis, I do not think the track geometry is as simple
> as some suggest.
>
> I also doubt that the usual ways to combat understeer would completely
> apply here either. how many other factory made tandem rear axle chassis are
> front wheel drive?
>
> theres some old video footage that someone put up on youtube from the '70s
> of the GMC being driven at their proving grounds/testing facility into
> various maneuvers to highlight the handling capabilities. it does really
> well and also seems that they did more than just throw some parts together
> and hope for the best. at least they had the resources available to them
> to do better than that so why wouldnt they?
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
 
Funny thing. My 1985 Full Size K5 blazer has the opposite. The front tread
width is wider than the rear, by almost two tire widths. In the snow, you
always have two sets of tracks. Always wondered why, but that thing would
go anywhere in the snow. Positrac in the rear differential, no posi in the
front. Self locking front hubs, manually shifted transfer case. 350 engine,
with a th400 and a heavy duty transfer case. New Process, I think.
Jim Hupy

> I didn’t mean to suggest that they throw parts together and hope for the
> best. I’m sure they did real design work, developed a general set of
> requirements, found the parts in current production that would meet those
> requirements (based on a vast range of driving conditions—and bias-ply
> tires), verified their design through prototype testing, cost-engineered it
> to minimize production costs, rinse and repeat until they converged on a
> design that would be approved. That is far different than designing the
> suspension from a clean sheet of paper.
>
> I am just not prepared to believe that the track difference was a design
> input that became a requirement, versus a design outcome that was
> acceptable because it didn’t violate any design requirements.
>
> Rick “and then radial tires came along” Denney
>
>

>
> > its a very unique chassis, I do not think the track geometry is as simple
> > as some suggest.
> >
> > I also doubt that the usual ways to combat understeer would completely
> > apply here either. how many other factory made tandem rear axle chassis
> are
> > front wheel drive?
> >
> > theres some old video footage that someone put up on youtube from the
> '70s
> > of the GMC being driven at their proving grounds/testing facility into
> > various maneuvers to highlight the handling capabilities. it does really
> > well and also seems that they did more than just throw some parts
> together
> > and hope for the best. at least they had the resources available to them
> > to do better than that so why wouldnt they?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> --
> Rick Denney
> 73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
> Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
Bill,

My question still stands; to align the front and rear wheels would not have taken any extra parts other than longer axles than the
Toronado. They had to make longer axles because the Toronado axles were too short.

I reiterate all they had to do is move the Toronado upper and lower control arm attachment points outwards by widening the front
frame.

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-photos/p64855-motorhome052-1.html

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808

PS - I'm thinking of flying up to CT and attending the Barrett-Jackson Collector Car Auction later this month; you going?


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces] On Behalf Of Bill Bryant
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 10:36 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Another example of different wheel tracks front to rear

Good answer Rick,

The GMC MotorHome front vs. rear track DESIGN had nothing to do with vehicle handling dynamics, only as they had resulted from the
original Toronado
design.

The GMC MH design resulted from:
1-"REAR" the unique rear suspension design specifications.
2-"FRONT" The cost restraints to use as many existing parts as possible. Increasing the front tread would have required a number of
new parts (you can pick what you would change). There was a very strong effort to control costs and minimize new part designs,
impacted especially when they decided that 21' & 24' coach lengths were extended to 23' & 26' (heavier). As can be seen in the 1973
coaches with a number of recalls* replacing lighter duty parts with heavier duty ones.

Yes, they could have designed the track differently, but looking at it in 1972, I presume they viewed it as quite adequate (4 other
MHs using the design, Toronado usage, etc.) Who would have thought we would be discussing this over 40 years later :^)

* rear spindles
bearings
brakes
shocks
air bags
A arm reinforcements
etc.

Bill
 
Rob,

To do what you suggest would have required new stampings for the L&R front frame section which was already an existing Toronado part (as well as
stabilizer bar, torsion bar cross member support & possibly other things I didn't think of).

I suspect that "matching the front & rear treads" may be of importance to us at this point, but I doubt if it made the list in 1972. If we looked at
the many makes and models of vehicles currently on the market my bet is that a large number of them have a different front vs. rear track.

I still believe the factors that determined the original design were:
1- use existing parts wherever possible.
2- costs, costs, costs

That is pretty much what I heard from the original GMC MH Engineers I spoke with.

PS. should be a good auction, no I won't be going. Have fun if you do. (looking for a mate for the T&C?)

Bill
--
Bill Bryant
1976~PB
1914 Ford
1965 Corvette
GMC MH History CD & GMC Showroom DVD
Workprint DVD GMC development 11-70 to 3-71
http://bdub.net/billbryant/
 
Rob,
I think they did widen the frame. If you look at the 1975 Toronado frame drawing,
it shows 30.5" between the lower control arm pivot. Whereas the GMCMH is 43".
Regards,
Bill

--
Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States
1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon
455 F Block, G heads
San Jose
 
I will chime back in here too. Bill is correct about many vehicles having =
differential track. Among them are the 1955 Corvette and the MB 300 SL, bo=
th front engine, rear wheel drive cars, one with a solid axle and one with =
swing axles, and the Porsche 356 rear engine, rear wheel drive car with swi=
ng axles. Most suspension publications I have read focus on reducing over =
steer by the front track being narrower than the rear track. In the case o=
f these three cars, the Corvette and the 300 SL were front end heavy cars w=
hile the Porsche was rear end heavy. And, in the Porsche case the track wa=
s wider at the front, 1306mm to 1270mm at the rear and that car was loved b=
y professional drivers who wanted the rear end to come out to get through c=
orners faster, but it was disliked by amateurs for that same reason - they =
had a hard time controlling it. Both the Corvette and the 300 SL were know=
n as plowing cars that you had to really crank over to get them around corn=
ers but were very stable at high speeds going straight. And, bias ply tire=
s on the motorhomes likely led to wanting the vehicle to under steer instea=
d of over steering which would argue for narrower front track. For t=
he 1966 Toronado, a car with 54%/46% front/rear weight distribution, Olds d=
esigned in 63.5 front and 63 rear track as a car with that weight distribut=
ion would not over steer to begin with. A 2010 Motor Trend article had=
an interesting observation about the 1966 Toronado that might shed some li=
ght on all this: quote - Olds designed it for 15-inch radial tires, bu=
t tests revealed unusually high wear, and 14-inch bias-plies were substitut=
ed at the last minute. Ultimately, the Toronado didn=E2=80=99t get radials =
until most every American car did during the first gas crises in the 1970s.=
- end quote Another source says the production cars had 8.85 x 15 inch bi=
as ply tires. I don=E2=80=99t know which is correct, but I think we can pu=
t to bed any question about whether the designers knew what they were doing=
when they dialed in a narrower front track on our motorhomes. All evidenc=
e suggests they did. Jerry Jerry Work The Dovetail Joint Fine fu=
rniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple buildin=
g in historic Kerby, OR glwork http://jerrywork.com =
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 11 Jun=
2018 12:08:49 -0600 From: Bill Bryant To: gm=
clist Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Another example of different =
wheel tracks front =09to rear Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset "utf-8" Rob, To d=
o what you suggest would have required new stampings for the L&R front fram=
e section which was already an existing Toronado part (as well as stabili=
zer bar, torsion bar cross member support & possibly other things I didn't =
think of). I suspect that "matching the front & rear treads" may be of=
importance to us at this point, but I doubt if it made the list in 1972. =
If we looked at the many makes and models of vehicles currently on the ma=
rket my bet is that a large number of them have a different front vs. rear =
track. I still believe the factors that determined the original design=
were: 1- use existing parts wherever possible. 2- costs, costs, costs=
That is pretty much what I heard from the original GMC MH Engineers I=
spoke with. PS. should be a good auction, no I won't be going. Have =
fun if you do. (looking for a mate for the T&C?) Bill -- Bill =
Bryant 1976~PB 1914 Ford 1965 Corvette GMC MH History CD & GMC Show=
room DVD Workprint DVD GMC development 11-70 to 3-71 http://bdub.net/b=
illbryant/
 
from here: http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=msg&goto=333365&rid=5513

> I will chime back in here too. Bill is correct about many vehicles having differential track. Among them are the 1955 Corvette and the MB 300
> SL, both front engine, rear wheel drive cars, one with a solid axle and one with swing axles, and the Porsche 356 rear engine, rear wheel drive car
> with swing axles. Most suspension publications I have read focus on reducing over steer by the front track being narrower than the rear track. In
> the case of these three cars, the Corvette and the 300 SL were front end heavy cars while the Porsche was rear end heavy. And, in the Porsche case
> the track was wider at the front, 1306mm to 1270mm at the rear and that car was loved by professional drivers who wanted the rear end to come out to
> get through corners faster, but it was disliked by amateurs for that same reason - they had a hard time controlling it. Both the Corvette and the
> 300 SL were known as plowing cars that you had to really crank over to get them around corners but were very stable at high speeds going straight.
> And, bias ply tires on the motorhomes likely led to wanting the vehicle to under steer instead of over steering which would argue for narrower front
> track.
>
> For the 1966 Toronado, a car with 54%/46% front/rear weight distribution, Olds designed in 63.5 front and 63 rear track as a car with that weight
> distribution would not over steer to begin with.
>
> A 2010 Motor Trend article had an interesting observation about the 1966 Toronado that might shed some light on all this:
>
> quote - Olds designed it for 15-inch radial tires, but tests revealed unusually high wear, and 14-inch bias-plies were substituted at the last
> minute. Ultimately, the Toronado didn't get radials until most every American car did during the first gas crises in the 1970s. - end quote Another
> source says the production cars had 8.85 x 15 inch bias ply tires. I don't know which is correct, but I think we can put to bed any question about
> whether the designers knew what they were doing when they dialed in a narrower front track on our motorhomes. All evidence suggests they did.
>
> Jerry

a wider front track is very common on short wheel base vehicles and less on long wheel based ones.

I think the tandem rear axles had more influence on the geometry up front, common sense (it seems anyway) would indicate that tandem rear axles would
make more work for the steering components. the tire rear most tire scrub often wrote about confirms this.

add front wheel drive and we have a mixture full of so many variables it had to be one of the most complex vehicles that GM ever had to sort out. I
have no doubt that there was some compromise in some areas and they settled on safe acceptable levels.

I wish I could have drove a new one! I have to wonder where the guys that shook these down on the proving grounds are today and what they concluded
with the final designs. its strengths and weaknesses?

IMO front wheel drive by itself is a weakness right out of the box on any vehicle and I never gave them a second look until I started looking into
these GMCs.

there has been some nice ones (front wheel drives) but I havnt been interested in any of them except a co-worker years ago had a Honda prelude that
was front wheel drive but it also had all wheel steering. this was back when they were new. I wanted to drive it but since I wouldnt let anyone drive
my new cars, I didnt ask him if I could drive it. I did ask him how it handled because to me it seemed it would be unstable at higher speeds. he
explained to me that the rear wheels turned opposite the front at slow speeds and then they changed to turn the same as the front at higher speeds.

seemed pretty cool.. leave it to Honda LOL!

just imagine how that would work on a GMC! or how about 6 wheel drive and steering? with the new hybrid electric drive/steer/brake technologies, I
think the GMC would be a perfect test bed for further developments in this area.

who here has an unlimited budget? I think all the old compromises can be overcome now and be even better than anything else this size. I certainly
dont have an unlimited budget but I have been looking at these extensively lately. as many as I can find locally and all the photos and other info I
can find on the internet.

the front end seems to be the main issue with the difficult bearings but I did not know until just recently that the front brake rotors can not be
changed without breaking down the whole assembly. that is not good.. not good at all so the one ton solution makes more sense to me now because of
that alone.

what would it take to get the 1-ton geometry to match the original? a custom knuckle? Ive priced out the rebuilt original stuff thats out there and
you would think it was made of gold! how much more would it take to redesign the knuckles to accept all the other 1-ton parts but have the correct
geometry?

obviously there would be some liability concerns here but with CAD and all the other modern techno advantages I think it could be done right the first
time and I would be willing to be a test driver ;)

after we get the stock geometry settled we can then move on to the All Wheel Drive Steering systems with regenerative braking etc. then we will have
the experience from the first new knuckles to make some changes there again if need be for the ultra tech rear stuff. HAhaha!
 
Bill, read Bill Bryant's message. The side rails (which have the offset
baked into them) were stock stampings for the Toronado, but the
cross-members were special to the motorhome on the front sub-frame. It's
possible for the motorhome to have a wider front track without using
different stamped parts. The front crossmember is a standard cross section
cut to length, while each of the the side rails were two special stampings
welded together in clamshell fashion.

Rick "always happy to reverse engineer a design for fun, but preferring
first-hand accounts on historical matters" Denney

> Rob,
> I think they did widen the frame. If you look at the 1975 Toronado frame
> drawing,
> it shows 30.5" between the lower control arm pivot. Whereas the GMCMH is
> 43".
>

--
'73 X-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
Offlist email: rick at rickdenney dot com
 
G'day,

Compare the Toronado frame drawing that BillW posted

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-photos/p64869-toronado-frame1.html

and the photo of the GMC front frame I posted:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-photos/p64869-toronado-frame1.html

To me they sure don't look like the same stamping.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
 
Would you not want the wheel pivot axis to intersect the center of the tire contact patch to the degree possible?

--johnny6
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
 
> G'day,
>
> Compare the Toronado frame drawing that BillW posted
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-photos/p64869-toronado-frame1.html
>
> and the photo of the GMC front frame I posted:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-photos/p64869-toronado-frame1.html
>
> To me they sure don't look like the same stamping.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.

Rob,

It sure looks like you posted the same link twice.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
Rob,

Then I bet it has to do with the jigs used for the control arm weldments.
Bill has actually talked to the original engineers. Shouldn't that count
for more than our suppositions based on our own design priorities brought
from other directions?

Are we trying to determine the history of the decision process, or
construct one that supports a different point we are trying to make?

As to trying to center wheels, etc., there are lots of vehicles that don't,
and lots of vehicles that have different wheel width options for the same
vehicle in different trim packages that do not change the wheel offset to
recenter a wider tire (because of fender-well clearance issues).

But, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. There are differences when
the track is changed, but I'm not sure how important they are from a
handling perspective, at least in the motorhome context. I sure do like the
12" brakes, however, and my previous brakes were tip-top.

Rick "who has a rear disk kit on the way" Denney

On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 9:06 AM, Rob Mueller
wrote:

> G'day,
>
> Compare the Toronado frame drawing that BillW posted
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-
> photos/p64869-toronado-frame1.html
>
> and the photo of the GMC front frame I posted:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-
> photos/p64869-toronado-frame1.html
>
> To me they sure don't look like the same stamping.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--
'73 X-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
Offlist email: rick at rickdenney dot com