Advice on improving handling

[MikeB]

Hi All,
We are still trying to get home on our maiden voyage. I'm hoping to have the towed back from shop tomorrow so we can head east out of Colorado.
However while I'm on this odyssey I'm looking for some advice and understanding of maybe what's going on with my coach. I read once that these coaches
"were designed more for the driving experience than the camping experience" well I dread the driving and have been loving the camping. I've been
getting a boot camp lesson with this vehicle. Drivers side upper ball joint popped out during my trip from Missoula to Hungry Horse outside of Glacier
NP. Spun tires halfway up a steep wet road on the cliff side of Flat Head lake that took years off my life. Once I had the upper and lower ball joints
replaced and drove to Bute and had the front end aligned I no longer felt as if I was going to die at any second. Moving along into Wyoming and
eastward I was relieved to be finally Off the Montana rutted roads only to enjoy the Wyoming red flag wind gusts of I80.

Here's are the characteristics of the steering that are absolutely killing the mood of this new romance.

- Great up to 45 then it has to be corrected from going left,right,left,right. That's exhausting after 4 hours.
- going around curves it never seems to want to stay in curve but rather seems to want to plow throw requiring slight over correction into the curve.

- Drives decent from 45-60 if on flat dry highway still requiring a little left,right,left,right..albeit sometimes I can use one hand to do it while I
wipe the sweat of the other.
- Over 60 it starts to wiggle a bit too much creating a sense of impending doom into my soul.
- How anyone can drive one of these over 65 is not even something I can fathom.

Here's what I have:
35k miles on new bogie pins and bushing with the upgraded grease fittings wit OP greasing at every oil change
Firestone Transforce with bead balancing and about 60% tread
Brand new upper/lower ball joints
Two shops inspected other steering components and said they were good
Front end alignment 0 Camber, +3 Caster, 0 Toe
60 psi front (4190 weight) 55 back tires (6260 rear axle weight. )
Ride height to top of oval Front 12-1/2" rear 10-5/8" that's measured with sidekick attached.
Front anti sway bar bushings look new
I have the sway-a-way torsion bars

We've driven about 1000 miles in the Mountain West area and my wife has enjoyed seeing the beautiful scenery....I have just seen pavement.

If I can't improve the driving experience of this coach I'm afraid I'll be putting it up for sale when I get home. Any suggestions would be
appreciated.

Thanks
Mike

--
M Beam
75’ Avion Lots of Mods
Zuki Sidekick

 

[emerystora]

There is a good chance that your problem is with the rear wheel alignment. Your front can be in perfect alignment but the rear can create a side to side pull which no amount of steering wheel correction can overcome.

I had the same problem a few years back until someone recommended an alignment shop in San Jose, CA that understood how to align six wheels such as we have on the GMC. Once it was aligned properly I could take my hands off the steering wheel and it would track properly down the road. What a relief. Prior to that I was constantly correcting the wheel.

A typical alignment shop has now idea on how to align the four rear wheels.

You don’t have your location in your signature line. If you could tell us where you live we might be able to help you more.

Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO

>
> Hi All,
> We are still trying to get home on our maiden voyage. I'm hoping to have the towed back from shop tomorrow so we can head east out of Colorado.
> However while I'm on this odyssey I'm looking for some advice and understanding of maybe what's going on with my coach. I read once that these coaches
> "were designed more for the driving experience than the camping experience" well I dread the driving and have been loving the camping. I've been
> getting a boot camp lesson with this vehicle. Drivers side upper ball joint popped out during my trip from Missoula to Hungry Horse outside of Glacier
> NP. Spun tires halfway up a steep wet road on the cliff side of Flat Head lake that took years off my life. Once I had the upper and lower ball joints
> replaced and drove to Bute and had the front end aligned I no longer felt as if I was going to die at any second. Moving along into Wyoming and
> eastward I was relieved to be finally Off the Montana rutted roads only to enjoy the Wyoming red flag wind gusts of I80.
>
> Here's are the characteristics of the steering that are absolutely killing the mood of this new romance.
>
> - Great up to 45 then it has to be corrected from going left,right,left,right. That's exhausting after 4 hours.
> - going around curves it never seems to want to stay in curve but rather seems to want to plow throw requiring slight over correction into the curve.
>
> - Drives decent from 45-60 if on flat dry highway still requiring a little left,right,left,right..albeit sometimes I can use one hand to do it while I
> wipe the sweat of the other.
> - Over 60 it starts to wiggle a bit too much creating a sense of impending doom into my soul.
> - How anyone can drive one of these over 65 is not even something I can fathom.
>
> Here's what I have:
> 35k miles on new bogie pins and bushing with the upgraded grease fittings wit OP greasing at every oil change
> Firestone Transforce with bead balancing and about 60% tread
> Brand new upper/lower ball joints
> Two shops inspected other steering components and said they were good
> Front end alignment 0 Camber, +3 Caster, 0 Toe
> 60 psi front (4190 weight) 55 back tires (6260 rear axle weight. )
> Ride height to top of oval Front 12-1/2" rear 10-5/8" that's measured with sidekick attached.
> Front anti sway bar bushings look new
> I have the sway-a-way torsion bars
>
>
> We've driven about 1000 miles in the Mountain West area and my wife has enjoyed seeing the beautiful scenery....I have just seen pavement.
>
> If I can't improve the driving experience of this coach I'm afraid I'll be putting it up for sale when I get home. Any suggestions would be
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks
> Mike
>
> --
> M Beam
> 75’ Avion Lots of Mods
> Zuki Sidekick
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

 

[scott nutter1]

Mike, sorta a loaded question.
Could be numerous issues. Steering box, relay lever, tie rod ends, slip joint, worn boggy pins, bad alignment.
Might be best to call Alex Ferrera.
--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas

 

[roy keen]

There must be something that is being overlooked in your alignment. My coach handled very well at any speed for many years. It only got a little fussy
when I installed the 1 ton front end. It would shutter on a steep grade with a car in tow. I lowered the front ride height and it was much better. You
need to get help from one of our shops that specialize in GMC's not any alignment shop they likely wouldn't be much help. These coaches are usually
fun to drive.
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook

 

[JR Williams]

Hey Mike,

I was/am having similar issues. Added to every bump in the road is amplified through the steering wheel. It's a challenge to drive.

The other day I took part the intermediate shaft (the blue colored spline) which was an extreme task. It was welded together from neglect I suppose.
In doing so my trusty 2lb sledge missed its mark and broke off a piece from the Constant Velosity Joint (the crazy looking ball bearing one at the
top). Not a good thing. I was able to put it all back together, which was extremely difficult, and it helped immensely with our problems, even being
busted up a bit. Wasn't perfect like everybody says the driving is, but I could tell it made a difference. They didn't go back together easily. Had to
get help from the sledge once again. And lining both up correctly made the job more frustrating. Seems others have had the issue too and I started
searching this forum.

Seemed I only had one choice but to look for another Velosity Joint to replace my broken one. Found it at Applied for $199.99 W/Core. Damn sledge!!

After a few hours of reading here I stumbled across a replacement for the whole assembly from the steering column to the gearbox. After inquiring on
this forum from the thread "lower steering shaft complete new replacement" folks that did the upgrade raved about it. Said how easy it was to install
and get right. So I ordered the parts from Summit Racing for a mere $226.00 (parts 014349, 015240, 450024)!! That replaces the whole thing including
the hard to deal with blue spline. Should have it installed Thursday after a slight modification.

Here's the link to the thread...
http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=msg&th=32661&start=0&rid=5807

Hope this helps us in the quest for white knuckle elimination.
--
JR Williams
St Petersburg FL
77 Birchaven

 

[MikeB]

Emery
I live in South Alabama, currently sitting in a KOA in Ft Collins waiting on my towed to be repaired. Your probably right about back wheels. The
alignment was done at a shop that did Big rigs and 4x4 trucks but Im sure they only adjusted the front.

Scott
A lot was replaced by PO. The only slack I found in steering is in the steering box and it's minor. The tracking is more of an issue than steering
even though I'm hoping it can be improved as well.

Roy
I hope that it becomes enjoyable. At the moment I enjoyed my 1969 IH Loadstar more ( after the wheels warmed up and it stopped shaking lol) but it had
a top speed of 50 mph.
--
M Beam
75’ Avion Lots of Mods
Zuki Sidekick,
Dozier Al

 

[emerystora]

I’m really at a loss as to where you can get it checked in Ft Collins. There are some truck shops that can align diesel tractors that have 4 rear wheels as they are similar to the GMC. You might call one or more and ask them if they have experience in aligning dual axle rear wheels.

Meanwhile check your four rear tires and tell me if you see any adverse wear. That might tell you where the problem is. Sometimes the rear floating arms are bent in or out by hitting a curb or a pothole.

Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick CO

>
> Emery
> I live in South Alabama, currently sitting in a KOA in Ft Collins waiting on my towed to be repaired. Your probably right about back wheels. The
> alignment was done at a shop that did Big rigs and 4x4 trucks but Im sure they only adjusted the front.
>
> Scott
> A lot was replaced by PO. The only slack I found in steering is in the steering box and it's minor. The tracking is more of an issue than steering
> even though I'm hoping it can be improved as well.
>
> Roy
> I hope that it becomes enjoyable. At the moment I enjoyed my 1969 IH Loadstar more ( after the wheels warmed up and it stopped shaking lol) but it had
> a top speed of 50 mph.
> --
> M Beam
> 75’ Avion Lots of Mods
> Zuki Sidekick,
> Dozier Al
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

 

[MikeB]

> Hey Mike,
>
> I was/am having similar issues. Added to every bump in the road is amplified through the steering wheel. It's a challenge to drive.
>
> The other day I took part the intermediate shaft (the blue colored spline) which was an extreme task. It was welded together from neglect I
> suppose. In doing so my trusty 2lb sledge missed its mark and broke off a piece from the Constant Velosity Joint (the crazy looking ball bearing one
> at the top). Not a good thing. I was able to put it all back together, which was extremely difficult, and it helped immensely with our problems,
> even being busted up a bit. Wasn't perfect like everybody says the driving is, but I could tell it made a difference. They didn't go back together
> easily. Had to get help from the sledge once again. And lining both up correctly made the job more frustrating. Seems others have had the issue too
> and I started searching this forum.
>
> Seemed I only had one choice but to look for another Velosity Joint to replace my broken one. Found it at Applied for $199.99 W/Core. Damn
> sledge!!
>
> After a few hours of reading here I stumbled across a replacement for the whole assembly from the steering column to the gearbox. After inquiring
> on this forum from the thread "lower steering shaft complete new replacement" folks that did the upgrade raved about it. Said how easy it was to
> install and get right. So I ordered the parts from Summit Racing for a mere $226.00 (parts 014349, 015240, 450024)!! That replaces the whole thing
> including the hard to deal with blue spline. Should have it installed Thursday after a slight modification.
>
> Here's the link to the thread...
> http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=msg&th=32661&start=0&rid=5807
>
> Hope this helps us in the quest for white knuckle elimination.

JR
Thanks for the information. I just added the same set up on my 1972 Ford Highboy when I bought a power steering kit. It's simple, tight and strong. I
may do that in the future. Right now my steering driveline looks in great shape, clean and has no looseness except a little in the actual box.
--
M Beam
75’ Avion Lots of Mods
Zuki Sidekick,
Dozier Al

 

[Rdenney]

Not tracking is most likely a steering gear box that is not centered. The
advice to reach out to Alex Ferrara is good—he can explain how to get it
right. The gearbox has a null at center that helps keep the wheel centered.
If the wheels are straight but off-center in the gearbox, it will pull.
Everything starts with the gear box—get that centered, then adjust the drag
link to aim the wheels straight ahead without moving the gearbox.

Start there. When I did all that, my coach drove straight, hands off, at
any speed. Even with severely worn rear bogies.

Rick “whose coach has always cruised at 70 happily, except maybe in a
strong crosswind” Denney

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 5:45 PM mtb8114--- via Gmclist <

> ...
> Here's what I have:
> 35k miles on new bogie pins and bushing with the upgraded grease fittings
> wit OP greasing at every oil change
> Firestone Transforce with bead balancing and about 60% tread
> Brand new upper/lower ball joints
> Two shops inspected other steering components and said they were good
> Front end alignment 0 Camber, +3 Caster, 0 Toe
> 60 psi front (4190 weight) 55 back tires (6260 rear axle weight. )
> Ride height to top of oval Front 12-1/2" rear 10-5/8" that's measured with
> sidekick attached.
> Front anti sway bar bushings look new
> I have the sway-a-way torsion bars
>
--
'73 X-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
Offlist email: rick at rickdenney dot com

 

[JR Williams]

LUCKY!!

Please post back on this topic. I'm having very similar handling with to many new parts to make sense of it all.

Good Luck!
--
JR Williams
St Petersburg FL
77 Birchaven

 

[MikeB]

> I'm really at a loss as to where you can get it checked in Ft Collins. There are some truck shops that can align diesel tractors that have 4 rear
> wheels as they are similar to the GMC. You might call one or more and ask them if they have experience in aligning dual axle rear wheels.
>
> Meanwhile check your four rear tires and tell me if you see any adverse wear. That might tell you where the problem is. Sometimes the rear
> floating arms are bent in or out by hitting a curb or a pothole.
>
> Emery Stora
> 77 Kingsley
> Frederick CO
>

> >
> > Emery
> > I live in South Alabama, currently sitting in a KOA in Ft Collins waiting on my towed to be repaired. Your probably right about back wheels.
> > The
> > alignment was done at a shop that did Big rigs and 4x4 trucks but Im sure they only adjusted the front.
> >
> > Scott
> > A lot was replaced by PO. The only slack I found in steering is in the steering box and it's minor. The tracking is more of an issue than
> > steering
> > even though I'm hoping it can be improved as well.
> >
> > Roy
> > I hope that it becomes enjoyable. At the moment I enjoyed my 1969 IH Loadstar more ( after the wheels warmed up and it stopped shaking lol)
> > but it had
> > a top speed of 50 mph.
> > --
> > M Beam
> > 75' Avion Lots of Mods
> > Zuki Sidekick,
> > Dozier Al
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
> The only funky weird wear on the tires was the front tires which I swapped for the middle tires and it wasn't much at all and I believe from bad
> bal joints. I put the middle set to the front because they looked so good. I'm hoping to move on tomorrow before the next cold front strands me here
> so I really don't have time to find an alignment shop. I may look for one in the Oklahoma City area because I may be there a few days waiting for
> the rain to leave. Thanks though.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

--
M Beam
75’ Avion Lots of Mods
Zuki Sidekick,
Dozier Al

 

[Bruce Hart]

You might give a shout to Weld County Garage "Truck City" in Greeley as
they have worked on a few GMCs from the club members
One members coach kept pulling to the right. Had it aligned and it still
pulled to the right. He took it to Truck City and mechanic found that the
steering damper was not centered correctly. Relocated steering damper and
all was good.

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 5:52 PM mtb8114--- via Gmclist <

> > I'm really at a loss as to where you can get it checked in Ft Collins.
> There are some truck shops that can align diesel tractors that have 4 rear
> > wheels as they are similar to the GMC. You might call one or more and
> ask them if they have experience in aligning dual axle rear wheels.
> >
> > Meanwhile check your four rear tires and tell me if you see any adverse
> wear. That might tell you where the problem is. Sometimes the rear
> > floating arms are bent in or out by hitting a curb or a pothole.
> >
> > Emery Stora
> > 77 Kingsley
> > Frederick CO
> >

> > >
> > > Emery
> > > I live in South Alabama, currently sitting in a KOA in Ft Collins
> waiting on my towed to be repaired. Your probably right about back wheels.
> > > The
> > > alignment was done at a shop that did Big rigs and 4x4 trucks but Im
> sure they only adjusted the front.
> > >
> > > Scott
> > > A lot was replaced by PO. The only slack I found in steering is in
> the steering box and it's minor. The tracking is more of an issue than
> > > steering
> > > even though I'm hoping it can be improved as well.
> > >
> > > Roy
> > > I hope that it becomes enjoyable. At the moment I enjoyed my 1969 IH
> Loadstar more ( after the wheels warmed up and it stopped shaking lol)
> > > but it had
> > > a top speed of 50 mph.
> > > --
> > > M Beam
> > > 75' Avion Lots of Mods
> > > Zuki Sidekick,
> > > Dozier Al
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GMCnet mailing list
> > > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> > The only funky weird wear on the tires was the front tires which I
> swapped for the middle tires and it wasn't much at all and I believe from
> bad
> > bal joints. I put the middle set to the front because they looked so
> good. I'm hoping to move on tomorrow before the next cold front strands me
> here
> > so I really don't have time to find an alignment shop. I may look for
> one in the Oklahoma City area because I may be there a few days waiting for
> > the rain to leave. Thanks though.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> --
> M Beam
> 75’ Avion Lots of Mods
> Zuki Sidekick,
> Dozier Al
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class

 

[john r. lebetski]

I'd ditch your front wheel spacers as they screw up front steering axis. Then get your steering box on center along with your relay/idler. Lastly 3
degrees is good but 4 degrees caster is better.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

 

[scott nutter1]

Mike,
Does the steering wheel seem to stay in it's commanded position in a turn? Or does it NOT want to come back to center? Is the wheel hard to turn? If
you let go of the wheel, would it go back to center?
Scott.
--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas

 

[mghamms]

I had similar handling with mine.
Al I did to improve it was to lower the back.
I measure from the side trim to the pavement about 1 inch lower at the back wheels from the front.
Purest might not like my method but close enough for me and works.
--
1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts

 

[MikeB]

Hi All
Thanks for the advice. I will respond tonight we are preparing to Launch out of here today as soon as the Towed (a Saga itself) is out of the shop.
Trying to stay ahead of the rain/snow fronts. I may be able to tell of different handling characteristics if the roads ahead are not Montana rutted or
Wyoming gusty...maybe.

Thanks!
Mike
--
M Beam
75’ Avion Lots of Mods
Zuki Sidekick,
Dozier Al

 

[jim kanomata1]

Mike,
You need to have someone in your area look over your coach as it sounds
like there is too much things wrong.
Get hold of Ken Henderson later, as he is busy at International Convention.
How is your rear height?
I am returning from Western States Rally , but can help you via phone Wed.

On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 9:03 AM mtb8114--- via Gmclist <

> Hi All
> Thanks for the advice. I will respond tonight we are preparing to Launch
> out of here today as soon as the Towed (a Saga itself) is out of the shop.
> Trying to stay ahead of the rain/snow fronts. I may be able to tell of
> different handling characteristics if the roads ahead are not Montana
> rutted or
> Wyoming gusty...maybe.
>
> Thanks!
> Mike
> --
> M Beam
> 75’ Avion Lots of Mods
> Zuki Sidekick,
> Dozier Al
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

 

[mark1]

My coach was a handful to drive when I picked it up (first drive was all the way across Los Angeles at rush hour... yikes!).

I found there were a lot of things that improved the handling. First, there was excessive play in the steering box, which I adjusted (many will tell
you this isn't a good idea, but I was very careful about the process and it worked out very well). Still too loose, and I found a lot of play in the
relay arm (here's a short video - I mistakenly referred to it as a "control arm"): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jRxMjykiw4

That helped, but I found that the handling was very susceptible to "truck ruts" on the interstate, or worse, dropping the rear tires off the edge of
the road. A set of True Track bogie devices fixed that for good.

The end result is that the coach drives very well now, and I'm very relaxed when driving it. That said, it can still be a handful if the driver isn't
really "tuned" into the whole experience. Even though I (and others who I've let drive it) have no problem at any speed up to and over 80mph (don't
ask...), I let an unnamed other person try to pilot it once, and they white-knuckled it for about a mile on the interstate before (thankfully!!!)
pulling over. Even after a few exhortations from me to relax, loosen their death grip on the wheel, she had the coach semi-violently swerving like it
was a sailboat in a hurricane. She pronounced the coach "undriveable" (this after I'd piloted it literally across the US, and of course, before I
drove it back across country without incident or drama). Some folks just have "different timing" and the length and mass of the coach makes driving
it a little like flying a dirigible. Any steering input doesn't do anything for a little while, which - to some drivers - induces an uncontrollable
urge to increase the steering input. Of course, this happens just as the original steering input takes hold and the front of the coach starts to
move. But now, there's too much steering input, so they turn it back the other way - and since the correction takes longer than they think it should,
they increase the correction... which of course sends the front of the coach swerving the other direction. And of course, the rest of the coach's
mass lags behind all this front-end drama, causing even more swerving, and the resultant over-correction.

What I suggest is to try just holding the wheel with two fingers to prove that you really don't need a death grip on the wheel. Consciously wait
after making a correction, to allow the suspension to settle and to avoid getting in the swerve-o-matic mode. Obviously, if the steering wheel is
pulling dramatically one way or the other, it's a different process, but in most cases, it isn't.
--
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen

 

[scott nutter1]

Mark,
Excellent video! It really shows what extreme movement looks like..
Scott.
--
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas

 

[jim kanomata1]

On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 2:38 PM Scott Nutter via Gmclist <

> Mark,
> Excellent video! It really shows what extreme movement looks like..
> Scott.
> --
> Scott Nutter
> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final
> drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
> installed MSD Atomic EFI
> Houston, Texas
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502