A whole new world

jerry work

New member
Feb 3, 2003
1,108
0
0
Just about the time I thought I had a good handle on all things GMC, here I=
go climbing the learning curve getting to know this Prevost Country Coach =
conversion. It is interesting to me that the GMC experience is so much mor=
e helpful in this process than our previous full timing in a large diesel p=
usher. One would think it would be the other way around. The answer is th=
at owning our two GMCs, and driving them so extensively, put me in a hands =
on position with nearly every system. With our diesel pusher that was not =
the case. Most of the Prevost systems are similar to the GMC, only sca=
led way larger and often with more redundancy. As an example, the roof mou=
nted heat pumps are very much the same as on our GMCs, only there are three=
of them, each zone controlled, and they are commonly ducted. The way they=
are implemented they are way quieter than in either of our two GMCs (neith=
er of which had heat pumps, just AC with small electric heat strips). But,=
in addition to that there are two large engine driven AC compressors that =
supply evaporators located throughout the coach, each zone controlled by a =
thermostat, so the whole coach stays at set temp no matter how hot it is ou=
tside. As luxury tour busses it was imperative to keep all your passengers=
comfortable after all! Interior heat is a very different in the Prevo=
st from the GMC. In the Prevost the engine cooling fluid is also pumped th=
roughout the coach, including the bay storage areas, where fan assisted rad=
iators provide three zone even heat control even in very cold temperatures.=
Yes, the GMCs do that but only for the driver and passenger unless you ad=
d additional radiators and fans elsewhere. In addition, the Prevost has a =
diesel fired boiler (Webasto) that also heats that same fluid when needed l=
ike when you are parked so the even and controlled heat remains moving or n=
ot. The Webasto heating the engine cooling fluid means the engine is alway=
s warm started, even in cold weather. Finally, that same fluid passes thro=
ugh the water to water heat exchangers in two domestic water heaters (both =
about double the size of the GMC water heater) so you have continuous hot w=
ater whether plugged into shore power or not. Slick. Both our GMC and=
the Prevost use air bags and auto ride height controllers. Both have abou=
t 4=E2=80=9D up and 4=E2=80=9D down travel for leveling while parked. The =
Prevost uses air bags all around while the GMCs obviously use air just in t=
he rear. In the Prevost the air compressor is engine driven and of very hi=
gh CMF output, but there is also a 120vac (Thomas in this case) air compres=
sor to power such things as air doors and toilet flushing while parked. Th=
e Prevost also uses air to tension the belts that drive the huge side mount=
ed fan (which itself uses a much larger version of the viscous coupled fan =
clutch employed in our GMCs) and the second AC compressor. One set of belt=
s goes from the crank pulley to a 90 degree power take off unit and a secon=
d set of belts goes from that unit to the fan clutch. A third set of belts=
goes from that unit to the second AC compressor. With the engine running =
air pressure keeps all those belts properly tensioned. If a belt ever brea=
ks, with the engine shut down you can release the air pressure and change b=
elts by hand - no tools required. The biggest difference between the s=
ystems on our GMCs and the systems in this Prevost is in the electrical sys=
tems. Our GMCs use 12vdc for both the chassis and house batteries and for =
starting the generator so it is easy to use combiners or isolators to make =
sure all batteries are charged from any charge source. Not so the Prevost.=
There the chassis uses 24vdc for most things (like starting) and also tap=
s off 12vdc for things like the fluid recirculation pumps and light bulbs w=
hich are more widely available in 12vdc form than in 24vdc form. The house=
battery bank is all 12vdc as is the generator starting battery bank. The =
house and chassis batteries are completely isolated one from the other and =
each has its own independent charging systems. When the engine is running =
there is a belt driven, water cooled, 300 amp alternator that takes care of=
the 24vdc and 12vdc chassis battery bank. There also is a second belt dri=
ven air cooled alternator that charges the house and gen start batteries. =
When plugged in, the 50 amp main cord supplies power to the house, the hous=
e battery bank via two 2500 watt inverter/chargers and the gen start batter=
ies via a combiner. But, it does not supply power to charge the chassis ba=
tteries. The idea was that as a luxury tour bus, the Prevost would be driv=
en most every day so the large 300 amp alternator would take care of that d=
uty. Country Coach did include a separate 10 amp 24vdc trickle charger, bu=
t it has to be plugged in separately from the 50 amp cord. What was =
news to me is that the generator does not power the chassis battery charger=
unless you plug it into one of the dedicated shore/gen plugs that bypass t=
he inverters. As an all electric coach, nearly everything runs off the inv=
erters powered by a massive 1800 amp hour AGM battery bank. The exceptions=
are one of the roof heat pump units and the 220vac stove top. They only r=
un if you are plugged into a 50 amp shore power plug or are running the 17.=
5kw four cylinder turbo charged Kabota generator which can supply as much a=
s 145 amps (about the output of three of our GMC generators). That int=
eresting 24v/12v chassis electrical system requires the use of a device I d=
id not know about called a battery equalizer. The 24vdc is achieved by usi=
ng four 12vdc AGM batteries wired series/parallel. The two series wired gr=
oups make the 24vdc while tapping off of just one paralleled group provides=
the 12vdc. The battery equalizer makes sure that both groups carry the 12=
vdc load so they do not see significantly different amps while charging. =
Some owners and some converters did add a dedicated 120vac plug in the e=
ngine compartment which is powered only by shore power or generator power b=
ut not by inverter power so the 24v charger would come on automatically but=
so far I have not found such a plug in this Country Coach conversion. =
Having been so hands on with all the systems in our two GMCs has really =
helped speed up what otherwise would have been a much longer learning curve=
trying to figure out the systems in the Prevost. Not that it has been eas=
y or fast, but just a lot easier and a lot faster because of that experienc=
e. Jerry Jerry Work The Dovetail Joint Fine furniture designed a=
nd hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerb=
y, OR glwork http://jerrywork.com =
 
Jerry, what engine does the Prevost use?

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
 
Jerry, what engine does the Prevost use?

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
================
 
I agree completely Jerry. We bought our Fleetwood Discovery about 2 1/2 years ago. They have a users group and web site similar to ours and are
about as fanatic also. Folks have asked me how in the world I knew all this stuff with such a limited experience. But, as you noted, it's not THAT
different and a lot of the knowledge transfers, other stuff is common sense.

That said, I promised Carolyn I would not do any mechanical repairs on the engine/tranny etc.
--
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama

77 Eleganza II, 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny, lots of aluminum goodies.

http://www.bdub.net/pinkerton/

'03 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
 
> Hi Johnny,
>
> This one has a Detroit Diesel Series 60 DDEC III. 13 liters and dialed for 475 HP and 1600 pounds feet of torque. Chassis GVW is just under
> 50,000 pounds but the coach weight is way short of that, below 43,000 IIRC so it performs well. I could not keep up with the Prevost in the GMC
> when the bus was driven by a pro driver for the mountainous run from AZ where we purchased it and NV where we took possession. The 6 speed Allison
> bus transmission (different from the motorhome transmissions - more cooling capacity and larger bearings) is a big part of the performance. Sure
> wish we could get a 6 speed automatic in our GMCs! In the Prevost case gear 4 is 1:1 and 5 and 6 are both overdrive gears. Final drive gearing is
> such that even steep mountain passes can be crossed in gear 4 at around 55-60mph. It has a dual stage Jacobs brake which really hauls this thing
> down going down hills.
>
> Jerry

Jerry,

Well, you aren't quite doing an apples and oranges comparison, but it is oranges and grapefruit at best.

Your DDED 3 is a turbocharged engine. That makes a huge difference at any altitude, but it starts at as little as 5KMSL.

The reason you have a transmission with a lot of gears is simply that is what is needed to make up for the very narrow power band that the engine can
actually run. The low end is limited by the low speed defuel so that the bearings don't get hammered out and the upper end also defuels but that is
because the piston weights are so high.

Now, If I could afford to put a blower on a 455, I could run you over from behind on any climb. (I have built engines that could do this.)

We have limited engine braking because our coaches have a passcar transmission. Those have a sprage clutch (think of a silent ratchet) for the top
gear.

Do I wish I had a diesel coach? Yes, but BHO smashed that dream real flat with the abrogation of the bankruptcy laws. 20+ years of scrimping and
saving - POOF.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
Me thinks someone gave you a little miss information Jerry. Unless Prevost did something unique I think you have a 12.7 ltr and they were rated
430,470,or 500 in bus/rv applications. There were some early DDEC11 400,425 and 450 ratings in trucks also. OTR trucks had some unique ratings such as
'cruise power' settings of 430/470, 470/500 where they produced higher hp in cruise control. Torque ratings ran 1450, 1550 or 1650. The DD13 wasn't
released until 2010, a spin off of the DD15 and is in fact a 12.8 ltr motor. Most likely you have a 470 hp 1550 motor. The B500 and MH4000HD's are the
same trans, only difference is software settings.The B500 was used almost exclusively in transit applications because of the shifting characteristics
and weren't rated as high because of the software.. The 4000 series could be rated up to 650 hp, 1950 tq in RV service. The MH4000HD could be supplied
with a deep pan and oil level sensor to check fluid levels from the shift pad,a really nice feature. In truck use they also had a deep ratio box that
were used in trash trucks, off road or where ever a lower ratio box was desirable. Either can be had with a retarder, (R after number, ie. B500R) and
they did have increased cooling with that option.
I sent you the contact information to my guy in Eugene, did you recieve it? Let me know, Hal
--
1977 Royale 101348,

1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,

1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout
 
After you've built one of these Bus Conversions you become way too familiar with all these systems. I chose to run two seperate alternators and
eliminated all the complication of the 24 volt systems. House and chassis are completely separated although both are 12 volt. I do have parallel
switches for redundancy if I were to loose one of the 250 amp alternators. Bus guys seem to think we're going to take these things to the moon of
something.
BTW, I've run my house off my 17.5 kW genset during an extended power loss.
Hal
--
1977 Royale 101348,

1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,

1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout
 
Jerry,

Few weeks back I looked through the pics you posted of your new coach, and I have to say it's exactly the rig I would buy if I ever have the
opportunity to full time. Would probably go with a coach like yours over even a brand new one... I really like the polished metal on the exterior
and southwest theme. Ties it in with some of the vintage Flxibles and deco coaches from the 40s and 50s which I love --much more than the newer
coaches that are just painted boxes.

The redundancy in those systems is really impressive. Figuring out and maintaining all the systems in the coach is a fun part of this hobby... At
least it is for me, so learning about a machine like yours is pretty cool. Thanks for sharing!
--
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX
 
Hi Hal

I have not yet received your info on the fellow in Eugene, OR but certainly look forward to meeting him. We are headed for a rolling rally put on by the GMCcascaders this weekend in nearby Albany, OR so if the info comes we will try to contact him. I assume he will allow a 78 Royale to grace his driveway (grin)!

Mia copa on the rounding up of 12.7 to 13 liters. Same for going off memory and saying 1600 instead of 1550 for the torque. I will check tomorrow but think the CC literature from 1997 listed the HP at 475 instead of 450. Maybe they were wrong but I doubt that it matters much. As RR used to boast when they did not spec things like HP, instead responding "adequate". I don't think I can tell the difference in any of this.

I look forward to lots of wisdom from you as I climb this most interesting learning curve.

Jerry
Jerry Work
Kerby, OR
 
Hi Mark

I appreciate your nice comments and will continue to share when I think it appropriate for our GMC community. We never thought we would buy a non slide coach but these are nicely laid out for extended use by two people without slides. We tend not to sit too long in one spot so the a sense of slides may not be too big an issue for us......yet. Maybe later

Jerry

Jerry Work
Kerby, OR
 
> Jerry, what engine does the Prevost use?
>
> --johnny

Probably a Detroit?

Hal: Does your bus run a 6V92 or something newer? Love the sound of the older Detroits...

--
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX
 
Hi Matt

Not trying to make a comparison, just an observation. Both of our GMCs have been really strong trouping all over NA so it was a surprise to me that a bus weighing more than three times as much as a GMC could run away from me like that while consuming only slightly more fuel. So, independent of the reasons, it is an impressive drive. I still really enjoy seat time in our 78 Royale and will sorely miss the 77 Clasco, but we simply have no room for that many coaches!

Hope to see you again at another GNCMI event during our extended times on the road with the Prevost

Jerry

Jerry Work
Kerby, OR
 
Hi again Matt

I forgot to share that the day the original owner took Possession of our 78 Royale (we are the second owner) he had the 403 taken out and a professionally built turbo charged 455 put in its place. Ran all Over the west like a scalded assed ape pulling a horse trailer to his daughters horse shows with the factory 307 final drive. Lasted 42,000 miles. We purchased it after a naturally aspirated 455 was built to replace the burned up turbo unit. We later changed the gearing to
370 and found that just right for the way we drive.

Jerry

Jerry Work
Kerby, OR
 
> > Jerry, what engine does the Prevost use?
> >
> > --johnny
>
>
> Probably a Detroit?
>
> Hal: Does your bus run a 6V92 or something newer? Love the sound of the older Detroits...
.

I have a 14 ltr Detroit Series 60. Dynoed at 619 hp, 2000+ lb lb. Kind of a story behind the motor.
I was good bud's with the Detroit folks in Las Vegas when the 14 ltr was going to be released as a reman. These were pre EGR motors, lots better than
the later versions-only about 18 months production window if memory serves. They told me about it and that Detroit was going to 'seed' the program
with new motors and they would build one to my specs. I got a complete drop in, ECM and all. I was introduced to the foreman at the build center, a
natural gear head and fellow racer. Of course we hit it off right off the bat. He said he'd put a 'good' burn in the ECM and indeed he did. The motor
was supposed to make 575hp, 1850 tq. He hinted that to get the number DOWN on my dyno sheet he had to raise the inlet temps during the run. They
couldn't send a motor out with whatever percentage over rated HP Detroit claimed.
They were a great bunch to work with in LV. They made a deal with the reman center to send in a couple of cores from their own bone pile so I didn't
have to give them my 20,000 mile 500 hp Series 60 out of the bus.
Most busses use 4.56 min gears, I used a 4.10 gear which the motor pulls nearly effortlessly. I have to be running 62 mph to get into 6th gear. Had a
real tough time getting Allison to change the programming from the existing 5 speed to a 6 speed as they run a scan with weight, frontal area HP, and
gear ratio and they claimed the bus could exceed 120 mph. If it weren't for my guys at Detroit going to bat for me and letting us sign a form
exonerating them of liability, I'd probably be running a 5 speed along with the reduced mileage.
Sorry for the long winded reply. It was a long, fun project.
Hal


--
1977 Royale 101348,

1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,

1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout
 
My last rebuild on a Detroit 2 cycle was an 8V-92 Fuel Squeezer before ECM.
It was at Blue Mountain Community College Diesel School. It Dynoed 715 HP
at 2400 RPM. It would run more RPM, but when I did, it melted the stacks
off the dyno. Man, do I love the sound of those things at "full song".
Sorry the 2 strokes went away. I miss 'em.
Jim Hupy

> > > Jerry, what engine does the Prevost use?
> > >
> > > --johnny
> >
> >
> > Probably a Detroit?
> >
> > Hal: Does your bus run a 6V92 or something newer? Love the sound of the
> older Detroits...
> .
>
> I have a 14 ltr Detroit Series 60. Dynoed at 619 hp, 2000+ lb lb. Kind of
> a story behind the motor.
> I was good bud's with the Detroit folks in Las Vegas when the 14 ltr was
> going to be released as a reman. These were pre EGR motors, lots better than
> the later versions-only about 18 months production window if memory
> serves. They told me about it and that Detroit was going to 'seed' the
> program
> with new motors and they would build one to my specs. I got a complete
> drop in, ECM and all. I was introduced to the foreman at the build center, a
> natural gear head and fellow racer. Of course we hit it off right off the
> bat. He said he'd put a 'good' burn in the ECM and indeed he did. The motor
> was supposed to make 575hp, 1850 tq. He hinted that to get the number DOWN
> on my dyno sheet he had to raise the inlet temps during the run. They
> couldn't send a motor out with whatever percentage over rated HP Detroit
> claimed.
> They were a great bunch to work with in LV. They made a deal with the
> reman center to send in a couple of cores from their own bone pile so I
> didn't
> have to give them my 20,000 mile 500 hp Series 60 out of the bus.
> Most busses use 4.56 min gears, I used a 4.10 gear which the motor pulls
> nearly effortlessly. I have to be running 62 mph to get into 6th gear. Had a
> real tough time getting Allison to change the programming from the
> existing 5 speed to a 6 speed as they run a scan with weight, frontal area
> HP, and
> gear ratio and they claimed the bus could exceed 120 mph. If it weren't
> for my guys at Detroit going to bat for me and letting us sign a form
> exonerating them of liability, I'd probably be running a 5 speed along
> with the reduced mileage.
> Sorry for the long winded reply. It was a long, fun project.
> Hal
>
>
> --
> 1977 Royale 101348,
>
> 1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
>
> 1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
 
You're probably right on the HP making little difference. I changed my 12.7 from 450/1450to 500/1650 and it sure wasn't worth the big extra money
invested. Now the 14 ltr I installed, that's a different story.
I sent you a PM with that information. Let me know.
Hal
--
1977 Royale 101348,

1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,

1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout
 
For those who like the Screamin' Jimmy, have a look:

https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/rvs/6090779503.html

I went and looked at it, cranked it but didn't drive it. Everything works as advertised. The interior is an older conversion, in good shape. Genset
cranks and runs like a top. Windows except the Ds are all new. New tires (lotsa bux) and nicely cleaned up. He has the power steering pump and
piston for the 4106 ready to install. A close look at the paint makes me think it would to a degree buff out, or it could be repainted. If I'd had
11 Large 'fun money' I'd have bought it. I may yet. You could drop some coin and put an Allison automatic in but I'd keep it stock and go gear
jammin'. It has complete records from the PO, who spent a fortuna at a bus repair and service place over the years.
We didn't get into the haggle, but I suspect if you waved ten Large in front of him you'd get it.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
 
I kind of like the idea of a manual shift. Carolyn isn't ever going to drive it anyway. How did they do the shift linkage? Rods or cables?
--
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama

77 Eleganza II, 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny, lots of aluminum goodies.

http://www.bdub.net/pinkerton/

'03 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
 
Kerry, I dunno. If memory serves, these had air assist shifting. Spicer four-speeds, in the 4104 and 4106, optionally an Allison auto. One learns
to double-clutch, or if you're proficient, use the clutch to get it rolling, and then match the engine and shift sans clutch. I suspect it hasn't
sold because it's a manual shift.
There are myriad Detroit Diesel mechanics and shops around. You want one who knows what he's doing to set up the injector rack, the injectors are
pulsed off a cam lobe for each cylinder, and a moveable rack determines their stroke and hence the fuel delivered. Adjustment is critical to achieve
maximum efficiency and power. This bus has an 8v71 fitted, also known as a 318 Detroit which is the horsepower output. The larger injectors increase
that somewhat, not sure how much. Chuck Boyd says carry a case of motor oil, they tend to use a bit. He's spent years riding behind one in a semi.
My experience consists of a half dozen round trips from Montgomery Alabama to Long Island in a TransStar II cabover tractor hauling rail equipment
with a friend in 1968 - 1969. That thing had a Fuller RoadRanger transmission with many many gears, which it needed when it was loaded. You're now
privy to my total Detroit Diesel experience :)

--johnny

--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
 
Yea, still got my 8V92TA with Allison 754 CRD with 3:70s. The valve cover says 540 hp @ 2400. That was before Alvin Purdue (rip) tuned it, Tac
will only bump 2800 since I turned it down. It would make the perfect GMC MH (or bus) hauler with a Landol trailer. If anybody wants to go that
route, $50k includes all aluminum Ravens flatbed trailer with side kit and extra 475HP 8V92T with 1 cracked head and scratched crank.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p59406-79-w-900a.html

--
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee