2017 Breakdown & Engine Replacement

7

78gmcroyale

New member
Apr 2, 2015
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Back in September I posted I had engine woes. I just wanted to update everyone on what had happened. It turned out my severe knocking was #2 piston
had broke apart. We ended up pulling the engine, having it rebuilt and reinstalling it. My thanks to my awesome friend Steve Southworth who let me
tie up his building for 7 weeks. Engine was rebuilt by D&R Engine & Machine in Marion, Iowa. They contacted Dick Paterson for the spec's on the cam
and other parts and they were awesome to work with. Pictures can be seen via the attached link. Thanks everyone for your input and support along
the way. I am hoping that this is something I never have to do again.

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g7117-2017-engine-woes.html

Ray
 
Two days to reinstall. Nope. One day to reinstall the engine. One day to get the P/S pump installed. Ray was not a happy camper. I told him if he
wanted to burn his coach he had to drag it out of the barn first.

--
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
 
20-20 Hind sight. I should have installed the power steering pump when the engine was out. What a buzzard that was!
 
When I replaced my engine last April, I installed that power-steering
bracket assembly four times. There is never a good time to install it. I
stared at that diagram in the maintenance manual for an hour trying to
figure out that jigsaw puzzle.

I think they made that one up as they went. Bent a piece, and it turned out
wrong. Okay, bend another piece to make it right. Nope? Let's do one more...

And the parts are interlocking. To remove the power steering pump bracket,
you have to remove the final drive hanger. To remove the final drive
hanger, you have to remove the power steering bracket.

And then there's the issue of how many washers it will take under that
center-headed stud to really align the belt properly. Answer: Different
than the number you just put in.

Rick "who said some truly nasty things to that bracket assembly" Denney

> 20-20 Hind sight. I should have installed the power steering pump when
> the engine was out. What a buzzard that was!
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
'73 X-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
Offlist email: rick at rickdenney dot com
 
> Back in September I posted I had engine woes. I just wanted to update everyone on what had happened. It turned out my severe knocking was #2
> piston had broke apart. We ended up pulling the engine, having it rebuilt and reinstalling it. My thanks to my awesome friend Steve Southworth who
> let me tie up his building for 7 weeks. Engine was rebuilt by D&R Engine & Machine in Marion, Iowa. They contacted Dick Paterson for the spec's
> on the cam and other parts and they were awesome to work with. Pictures can be seen via the attached link. Thanks everyone for your input and
> support along the way. I am hoping that this is something I never have to do again.
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g7117-2017-engine-woes.html
>
> Ray

Ray,
I looked at the pics, particularly the images of the piston. Never seen something like that. Post mortem give you any idea why that happened?

--
Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
 
Steve,

I've only worked with later coaches that have aluminum front body brackets.
I drilled a hole in the body mount and installed an eyebolt
in it. Tied a rope to it and put it under the AC compressor and up through
a hole in the aluminum rim around the hatch. Pulled the
compressor up and out of the way until I had the motor out and back in.
Then lowered it back to it's bracket. When you're working
alone, you have to figure out ways to do things. I've never had to pull the
Cadillac, so I don't know what I'd do with the compressor.

Gary Kosier
77PB w/500Cad
Newark, Ohio

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Steve Southworth"
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 4:31 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 2017 Breakdown & Engine Replacement

> Two days to reinstall. Nope. One day to reinstall the engine. One day
> to get the P/S pump installed. Ray was not a happy camper. I told him if
> he
> wanted to burn his coach he had to drag it out of the barn first.
>
> --
> Steve Southworth
> 1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
> 1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
> Palmyra WI
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
 
Back in the '50s, Olds and Cad v8 engines were notorious for breaking
pistons. They were just learning about "slipper skirt" vs full circle
designs. Once they quit casting them and started forging them, "impact
extrusion" was the term the factory used to describe the process, the
pistons quit failing like that. Been a long time since I have seen that
failure. Sometimes it is caused by someone dropping the rod and piston
assembly, picking it up, and putting it in the bore before anyone notices
what they did. "Stuff happens".
Any marks on the top of the piston like needle bearings were bouncing
around in there when it was running? Classic evidence of detonation if you
see that. It darn sure will break the sides off pistons like that.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

> Back in September I posted I had engine woes. I just wanted to update
everyone on what had happened. It turned out my severe knocking was #2
> piston had broke apart. We ended up pulling the engine, having it
rebuilt and reinstalling it. My thanks to my awesome friend Steve
Southworth who
> let me tie up his building for 7 weeks. Engine was rebuilt by D&R
Engine & Machine in Marion, Iowa. They contacted Dick Paterson for the
spec's
> on the cam and other parts and they were awesome to work with. Pictures
can be seen via the attached link. Thanks everyone for your input and
> support along the way. I am hoping that this is something I never have
to do again.
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g7117-2017-engine-woes.html
>
> Ray

Ray,
I looked at the pics, particularly the images of the piston. Never seen
something like that. Post mortem give you any idea why that happened?

--
Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.

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I want to thank all involved for these discussions.

While visiting the most honorable wizard himself (Dave Lenzi) in his abode, we looked at and talked about an 8.1 he has in a front frame and about
ready to put in a coach. He has decided that this is the only way to do an engine. (That is fine for him, he is a grand wizard.)

So, I am going to investigate this at great length as my coaches engine needs attention. (Like a dead hole and oil in the air filter, it's telling me
it needs some love.) After 70K of wonderful problem free miles, I can't refuse.

I will try to take enough pictures to let the community know how it goes. (Please remember that if I am working alone, it is not easy to stop and
take pictures.)

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
> I want to thank all involved for these discussions.
>
> While visiting the most honorable wizard himself (Dave Lenzi) in his abode, we looked at and talked about an 8.1 he has in a front frame and about
> ready to put in a coach. He has decided that this is the only way to do an engine. (That is fine for him, he is a grand wizard.)
>
> So, I am going to investigate this at great length as my coaches engine needs attention. (Like a dead hole and oil in the air filter, it's
> telling me it needs some love.) After 70K of wonderful problem free miles, I can't refuse.
>
> I will try to take enough pictures to let the community know how it goes. (Please remember that if I am working alone, it is not easy to stop and
> take pictures.)
>
> Matt

Been there done that.

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g5924-front-clip-pull.html

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g5925-front-clip-dolly.html

--
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
 
Can you just imagine Matt's light weight coach with an 8.1 going to Jim Bound's drag race session in Florida?

D C "Mac" Macdonald
Amateur Radio - K2GKK
k2gkk @ hotmail dot com
USAF and FAA, Retired
Oklahoma City, OK
"The Money Pit"
1976 ex-Palm Beach
k2gkk + hotmail dot com
www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb

________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of Matt Colie
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 18:28
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 2017 Breakdown & Engine Replacement

I want to thank all involved for these discussions.

While visiting the most honorable wizard himself (Dave Lenzi) in his abode, we looked at and talked about an 8.1 he has in a front frame and about
ready to put in a coach. He has decided that this is the only way to do an engine. (That is fine for him, he is a grand wizard.)

So, I am going to investigate this at great length as my coaches engine needs attention. (Like a dead hole and oil in the air filter, it's telling me
it needs some love.) After 70K of wonderful problem free miles, I can't refuse.

I will try to take enough pictures to let the community know how it goes. (Please remember that if I am working alone, it is not easy to stop and
take pictures.)

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

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YES! And a 4.10 Limited Slip with sticky front tires.
:-)

> Can you just imagine Matt's light weight coach with an 8.1 going to Jim
> Bound's drag race session in Florida?
>
>
> From: Gmclist on behalf of Matt Colie
> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 18:28

> While visiting the most honorable wizard himself (Dave Lenzi) in his
> abode, we looked at and talked about an 8.1 he has in a front frame and
> about
> ready to put in a coach. He has decided that this is the only way to do
> an engine. (That is fine for him, he is a grand wizard.)
>
> So, I am going to investigate this at great length as my coaches engine
> needs attention. (Like a dead hole and oil in the air filter, it's telling
> me
> it needs some love.) After 70K of wonderful problem free miles, I can't
> refuse.
>
 
> Can you just imagine Matt's light weight coach with an 8.1 going to Jim Bound's drag race session in Florida?

> YES! And a 4.10 Limited Slip with sticky front tires.
> :)

If there was any way I could afford to do it, I would have Dave set me up with an 8.1 tomorrow. As for the LS4.10, I already don't need that because
we frequently have to hold off behind 4-wheels that can't seem to get out of the way. (I would put in a 3.55 in any case, but for the same
restriction. This engine is at least happening in a non-tire buying year.)

Matt

--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
Thanks for posting those photos Steve. I have to pull the clip from my parts coach (If I ever get started on that project) that I'm going to build
the car hauler from. It was helpful to see the actual connection and the tip about spreading the frame is a big deal. I expect that 40 years of rust
will lock it in place pretty good. When I pull mine, I won't have to worry about the Fiberglas because it's going away anyway. I'll just whack it
off with a sawsall. Also I won't have to worry about the wiring or brake lines since everything will be done from scratch.

My clip is going to have a Caddy if I ever get down to John Beavers to pick it up.
--
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama

Had 5 over the years. Still have the first a 76 that will be rebodied into an art deco car hauler.

http://www.bdub.net/pinkerton/

'03 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
 
No one has been able to give a good reason on why the piston broke. Many say ignition timing, some say over-heating. Even Dick Paterson couldn't
give a good reason. I know my timing was set correctly. It remains a mystery.
 
After they magna-fluxed the engine parts I had a cracked block, cracked head and a cracked intake manifold. Thanks to Bob Donahue he had those parts
available and sold them to me at a reasonable price. They ended up boring that block out .040.
 
Then, you can pretty much rule out detonation as a cause of piston failure.
At some point,it really does not make much difference when only one piston
fails. I would lean towards manufacturing defect that took this long to
manifest itself into failure. Without destructive testing and scientific
analysis of the remaining bits, the cause will likely remain an educated
guess.
It is critically important to absolutely insure that no debris remains
anywhere in the oil cooler or lines. Important enough that S and J refuses
to warranty any engine that re-uses existing coolers. If the engine
grenades, I would agree. If it just plain wore out or had burned valves or
seats, I might gamble on flushing out, catching the stuff that comes out,
and then deciding after inspection confirms no metal particles were flushed
out.
But, it is your money and time invested here. Spend it wisely,
grasshopper. (Grin)
Jim Hupy

No marks on the top of the piston at all.

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> Then, you can pretty much rule out detonation as a cause of piston failure.
> At some point,it really does not make much difference when only one piston
> fails. I would lean towards manufacturing defect that took this long to
> manifest itself into failure. Without destructive testing and scientific
> analysis of the remaining bits, the cause will likely remain an educated
> guess.
> It is critically important to absolutely insure that no debris remains
> anywhere in the oil cooler or lines. Important enough that S and J refuses
> to warranty any engine that re-uses existing coolers. If the engine
> grenades, I would agree. If it just plain wore out or had burned valves or
> seats, I might gamble on flushing out, catching the stuff that comes out,
> and then deciding after inspection confirms no metal particles were flushed
> out.
> But, it is your money and time invested here. Spend it wisely,
> grasshopper. (Grin)
> Jim Hupy
>

>
> No marks on the top of the piston at all.
> Did you check for Cross Fire

most common thing we all miss.

>
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
 
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