12pt inner drive bolt torque

[john r. lebetski]

A GMCer lost all his bolts on one side several thousand miles after a shop did Manny trans install. I met him with my Mcmaster spares and washers and
told him to use blue loctite and there was a FB post that 65 ft/lb was correct. Bob Stone said there was a manual misprint and that number might too
high. I want to pass on correct info on torque spec.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

 

[john r. lebetski]

Looking at charts for 3/8-24 I told him to stop at 50 with blue and split spring washers
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

 

[Jim Hupy]

I think that the bolts that Manny supplies with his 1 ton kits are highest
known grade, with special lockwashers. We have been using blue threadlocker
with squeaky clean threads and torquing to 55 foot pounds. BUT, THE DRIVERS
SIDE BOLTS PARTICULARLY NEED TO BE PERIODICALLY CHECKED after break in
miles. I have found quite a few on both the 1 tons and OEM front ends that
loosen a bit after some mileage.
We have experienced owners losing all the bolts on the drivers
sidewhen shops unfamiliar with front wheel drive systems have worked on
them.
Check those bolts regularly.
Jim Hupy

Looking at charts for 3/8-24 I told him to stop at 50 with blue and split
spring washers
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

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[Rdenney]

Back in the day, this was discussed a lot. I don't think it's appropriate
work from torque charts for these special bolts, but rather to understand
the design intent. These bolts will experience fatigue as well as
loosening, and one reason to overstress them slightly is to relieve
internal stresses. Those internal stresses (left over from manufacturing)
yield, which results in more even stress and strain across the bolt. That
makes it more resistant to fatigue, and also a bit stronger. Also, it keeps
it from ever being unloaded. A bolt that loosens does so because part of
its loading cycle unloads it to the point where normal strain in the parts
can unscrew it. We learned about this with spoked wheels over the
years--the spokes have to be overstressed to relieve internal stresses at
the head, which is formed by swaging. Doing so minimizes fatigue failures.

I tightened mine to 62 ft-lbs when I installed Manny's kit, and I will
indeed check them when they've had some miles put on them.

I've never heard of one of these Grade "10" bolts breaking or stripping
threads either when being installed or subsequently, but I have heard of
them getting loose. And the book recommends quite high torque. I suggest
there's more to fear from under-torquing than over-torquing.

Rick "GM didn't use Loctite and the bolts didn't become loose with driving"
Denney

> I think that the bolts that Manny supplies with his 1 ton kits are highest
> known grade, with special lockwashers. We have been using blue threadlocker
> with squeaky clean threads and torquing to 55 foot pounds. BUT, THE DRIVERS
> SIDE BOLTS PARTICULARLY NEED TO BE PERIODICALLY CHECKED after break in
> miles. I have found quite a few on both the 1 tons and OEM front ends that
> loosen a bit after some mileage.
> We have experienced owners losing all the bolts on the drivers
> sidewhen shops unfamiliar with front wheel drive systems have worked on
> them.
> Check those bolts regularly.
> Jim Hupy
>

 

[Ken B]

65 is the number that I have always used. Go too loose and you will be replacing them somewhere down the road again.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

 

[Ken H.]

I use 65 lb-ft and blue Loctite (w/o special cleaning). I've never had
one break nor loosen.

JWID,

Ken H.

> 65 is the number that I have always used. Go too loose and you will be
> replacing them somewhere down the road again.
> --
>

 

[johnny]

I think you're correct. I had to get 10 + rated cap screws with the same head surface as the twelve point bolts, they've worked fine after chasing
the flange threads and putting a bit of blue LocTite on them. I used 65 ft-lbs and worried not for the bolts, but for the flange itself. Strip
it and you have a problem. What are the chances of the flange threads giving up before the bolts?

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

 

[johnny]

Use the thick washers intended for the purpose. JimK has them or your local Grainger/McMaster/whomever industrial supply has them. Locally it's
Central Fastener. Take an old one along to match if you don't source them from one of the GMC suppliers to ensure you get the correct ones. Frankly,
I suspect it's less expensive to simply get a set from Applied than it is to run down to the supplier, wait while the clerk finds the correct parts,
wait while s/he takes the wrong washers back and (hopefully) finds the correct ones, etc. What's your time worth anyhow? (I got them for fifty cents
a bolt. It took a couple of hours. I bill my time at $800 per day. I would have done Applied but I found the looseness on inspection the day before
I left for a show)

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

 

[john r. lebetski]

I met the GMCer at a grocery 1/2 between us ( had to shop anyway) and got him 8 McMaster bolts and washers from my spares kit along with the blue and
65 info. He was going to probably have to chase the last thread on a few holes due to tear out when it let go. Hopefully he will back on the road
south today. Thanks guys
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

 

[SteveW]

I have a vague recollection that the bolts on one side are slightly longer than on the other side...

Correct ??

Or do I have the wrong (too long) bolts on one half ??

Thanks

Steve W
Southern California
1973 23'. Yellow

 

[Jim Hupy]

Shorter ones go on the drivers side.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

> I have a vague recollection that the bolts on one side are slightly longer
> than on the other side...
>
> Correct ??
>
> Or do I have the wrong (too long) bolts on one half ??
>
> Thanks
>
> Steve W
> Southern California
> 1973 23'. Yellow
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>

 

[emerystora]

I am fairly certain that they are all the same length.

Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO

>
> I have a vague recollection that the bolts on one side are slightly longer than on the other side...
>
> Correct ??
>
> Or do I have the wrong (too long) bolts on one half ??
>
> Thanks
>
> Steve W
> Southern California
> 1973 23'. Yellow
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

 

[Jim Hupy]

No, they are not.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

> I am fairly certain that they are all the same length.
>
> Emery Stora
> 77 Kingsley
> Frederick, CO
>
> > On Jan 6, 2018, at 8:52 AM, Steve Weinstock

> >
> > I have a vague recollection that the bolts on one side are slightly
> longer than on the other side...
> >
> > Correct ??
> >
> > Or do I have the wrong (too long) bolts on one half ??
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Steve W
> > Southern California
> > 1973 23'. Yellow
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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[jim kanomata1]

I believe Emory is correct. in the parts book it calls out for one type.
We supply the exact bolt, the ones that are avilable at other sources
either have smaller heads and flll thread. Not that it will not work, but
shops like us hate to come back to the tool tray and use another socket.
The reason the driver side tends to back out more is that the spider gear
is attached to that output shast and creats more vibration. Also you will
not that the plat does have some play.
Being the major supplier of final drives, I receive calls frequently re.
the play.

> No, they are not.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>

>
> > I am fairly certain that they are all the same length.
> >
> > Emery Stora
> > 77 Kingsley
> > Frederick, CO
> >
> > > On Jan 6, 2018, at 8:52 AM, Steve Weinstock

> > >
> > > I have a vague recollection that the bolts on one side are slightly
> > longer than on the other side...
> > >
> > > Correct ??
> > >
> > > Or do I have the wrong (too long) bolts on one half ??
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Steve W
> > > Southern California
> > > 1973 23'. Yellow
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > GMCnet mailing list
> > > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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> >
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

 

[emerystora]

Jim Hupy — You are very positive in your reply but please show me anywhere it says they are different lengths.

I have checked the maintenance manual and it doesn’t say anything about the length. It just says to use new bolts and torque them to 75 ft lbs.

I checked the parts book 78Z and on page 1-9 it shows one side with part number 39477 on diagram 1.006. It doesn’t show the other side.
The part number it gives is 39477.

So I went to the assembly manual and it shows there are 12 bolts part number 39477 with torque of 60:75 ft lbs.

Where do you find that they are of different lengths? I would trust that the assembly manual is correct.

I have replaced mine perhaps three times over the years and the ones I installed were all the same length.

So, I decided to call Jim Kanomata and ask him. Jim confirmed to me that both sides take the same length bolt.
He says that the reason some people have seen different lengths is because someone has used non-GMC belts which were a bit longer Then they had to grind some off the driver’s side so they didm’t hit the final drive.
But if you use 12 bolts all the same, but right, length they work fine.

Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO

>
> No, they are not.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>

>
>> I am fairly certain that they are all the same length.
>>
>> Emery Stora
>> 77 Kingsley
>> Frederick, CO
>>
>>> On Jan 6, 2018, at 8:52 AM, Steve Weinstock

>>>
>>> I have a vague recollection that the bolts on one side are slightly
>> longer than on the other side...
>>>
>>> Correct ??
>>>
>>> Or do I have the wrong (too long) bolts on one half ??
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Steve W
>>> Southern California
>>> 1973 23'. Yellow
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>>
> _______________________________________________
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[Jim Hupy]

Emery, I know what the factory parts book says. You and Jim K. are correct.
There is only ONE length listed there.
I confused the 1 ton bolts with the stock ones. MANNY T furnishes
DIFFERENT LENGTH bolts with his kits. His bolts are a higher grade than the
OEM bolts, and engage all the threads present in the mounting flanges. On
the drivers side of the coach, the flange runs in very close proximity to
the final drive case. If the longer bolts are used there, the ends protrude
through the flange, and in some instances will hit the final drive case.
That is why the shorter bolts are provided. Sorry that I muddied the waters
here. Hope this explains my answer.
Jim Hupy

> Jim Hupy — You are very positive in your reply but please show me anywhere
> it says they are different lengths.
>
> I have checked the maintenance manual and it doesn’t say anything about
> the length. It just says to use new bolts and torque them to 75 ft lbs.
>
> I checked the parts book 78Z and on page 1-9 it shows one side with part
> number 39477 on diagram 1.006. It doesn’t show the other side.
> The part number it gives is 39477.
>
> So I went to the assembly manual and it shows there are 12 bolts part
> number 39477 with torque of 60:75 ft lbs.
>
> Where do you find that they are of different lengths? I would trust that
> the assembly manual is correct.
>
> I have replaced mine perhaps three times over the years and the ones I
> installed were all the same length.
>
> So, I decided to call Jim Kanomata and ask him. Jim confirmed to me that
> both sides take the same length bolt.
> He says that the reason some people have seen different lengths is because
> someone has used non-GMC belts which were a bit longer Then they had to
> grind some off the driver’s side so they didm’t hit the final drive.
> But if you use 12 bolts all the same, but right, length they work fine.
>
>
> Emery Stora
> 77 Kingsley
> Frederick, CO
>

> >
> > No, they are not.
> > Jim Hupy
> > Salem, Or
> > 78 GMC ROYALE 403
> >

> >
> >> I am fairly certain that they are all the same length.
> >>
> >> Emery Stora
> >> 77 Kingsley
> >> Frederick, CO
> >>
> >>> On Jan 6, 2018, at 8:52 AM, Steve Weinstock

> >>>
> >>> I have a vague recollection that the bolts on one side are slightly
> >> longer than on the other side...
> >>>
> >>> Correct ??
> >>>
> >>> Or do I have the wrong (too long) bolts on one half ??
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>>
> >>> Steve W
> >>> Southern California
> >>> 1973 23'. Yellow
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> GMCnet mailing list
> >>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> >>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GMCnet mailing list
> >> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> >> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
> >>
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>
>
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[Matt Colie]

> Back in the day, this was discussed a lot. I don't think it's appropriate work from torque charts for these special bolts, but rather to
> understand the design intent. These bolts will experience fatigue as well as loosening, and one reason to overstress them slightly is to relieve
> internal stresses. Those internal stresses (left over from manufacturing) yield, which results in more even stress and strain across the bolt. That
> makes it more resistant to fatigue, and also a bit stronger. Also, it keeps it from ever being unloaded. A bolt that loosens does so because part of
> its loading cycle unloads it to the point where normal strain in the parts can unscrew it. We learned about this with spoked wheels over the
> years--the spokes have to be overstressed to relieve internal stresses at the head, which is formed by swaging. Doing so minimizes fatigue
> failures.
>
> I tightened mine to 62 ft-lbs when I installed Manny's kit, and I will indeed check them when they've had some miles put on them.
>
> I've never heard of one of these Grade "10" bolts breaking or stripping threads either when being installed or subsequently, but I have heard of
> them getting loose. And the book recommends quite high torque. I suggest there's more to fear from under-torquing than over-torquing.
>
> Rick "GM didn't use Loctite and the bolts didn't become loose with driving" Denney

Rick,

As usual, you are largely correct, but to compare the drive axle capscrews to spokes would not be a good idea. The spokes of a spoked wheel have to
be stressed to yield to, as you said, normalize the residual internal stresses. It also imbues an internal tension to make the part act as a spring
over the extent of its expected working load.

I cannot locate the actual specification for the 12 point capscrews (394777), but the Mcmaster parts are a common aircraft fastener of the ASTM A574
grade. This makes them a heat treated high alloy part and as such, if you try to over stress one, it will fail in an almost glass fracture. The can
be loaded to elongation only a very little bit, and I would be surprised if the 75 called for in the assembly manual will do that.

The lockwasher called out in the build book is not a common part, and the parts manual says "Procure Locally". Mine were a hardened part. A
lockwasher is supposed to work by both locking into the burr that they cause on the mating surfaces and by supplying additional load when making the
joint up. It is my experienced opinion that in this assembly, that is a lost cause.

Years back, I went around on this subject just for myself. I carry these fasteners as spares and a torque wrench because they could be very difficult
to source on the road. We have a 23' coach, and my capability to carry spares is very limited. I tried, but I could not effectively cross-drill the
heads. I wanted to safety wire those guys. If I could find drive on lockers, that would be good to, but those are kind of a specific part.

Fred and Emery....
The assembly manual calls out 12ea of the single part number.

Matt - working hard at not freezing his buns off -
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

 

[Rdenney]

Manny’s original kits used different lengths, but he has reportedly and
apparently addressed that issue in his latest kits. All the bolts in the
kit I installed this year were the same length.

The original shafts all use the same length.

I want to argue with JimK a bit about the cause of the loosening on one
side. If vibration could loosen the bolts, they are simply not tight
enough. What works them loose is the direction of drive torque on that
side. If the bolts were left-threaded, they would not loosen. But they also
won’t loosen if they are tightened per the book. That is tighter than most
will attempt by feel, even professional mechanics, and I’m convinced that
the loosening incidents have resulted from not tightening them enough.

And I’ve never heard of anyone stripping out the proper-length bolts at the
torque shown in the book. Maybe there are cases of that, but I’ve never
heard of it.

Rick “remembering when Chrysler used left-threaded wheel studs on the port
side” Denney

> Emery, I know what the factory parts book says. You and Jim K. are correct.
> There is only ONE length listed there.
> I confused the 1 ton bolts with the stock ones. MANNY T furnishes
> DIFFERENT LENGTH bolts with his kits. His bolts are a higher grade than the
> OEM bolts, and engage all the threads present in the mounting flanges. On
> the drivers side of the coach, the flange runs in very close proximity to
> the final drive case. If the longer bolts are used there, the ends protrude
> through the flange, and in some instances will hit the final drive case.
> That is why the shorter bolts are provided. Sorry that I muddied the waters
> here. Hope this explains my answer.
> Jim Hupy
>

> --
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com

 

[Rdenney]

Matt,

Yes, you’re right, we won’t be micro-yielding these bolts. My point with
the example is that there are cases when threaded fasteners and assembled
parts are loaded to higher than usual levels to overcome particular strain
activity in the assembly. That only the bolts on one side loosen
demonstrates to me that the problem stems from strain activity. That said,
these bolts are specifically supposed to be replaced when removed and not
reused, which indicates to me that they are expected to be loaded close to
the yield strength of some part of the assembly.

Those ASTM A574 bolts have a rated strength of 170 ksi, and McMaster calls
them “Grade 9”.

The washers I have used are “high-collar” lock washers. I agree they won’t
really bite into the bolt.

Rick “who used what Manny sent for this year’s project” Denney

>
>
> Rick,
>
> As usual, you are largely correct, but to compare the drive axle capscrews
> to spokes would not be a good idea. The spokes of a spoked wheel have to
> be stressed to yield to, as you said, normalize the residual internal
> stresses. It also imbues an internal tension to make the part act as a
> spring
> over the extent of its expected working load.
>
> I cannot locate the actual specification for the 12 point capscrews
> (394777), but the Mcmaster parts are a common aircraft fastener of the ASTM
> A574
> grade. This makes them a heat treated high alloy part and as such, if you
> try to over stress one, it will fail in an almost glass fracture. The can
> be loaded to elongation only a very little bit, and I would be surprised
> if the 75 called for in the assembly manual will do that.
>
> The lockwasher called out in the build book is not a common part, and the
> parts manual says "Procure Locally". Mine were a hardened part. A
> lockwasher is supposed to work by both locking into the burr that they
> cause on the mating surfaces and by supplying additional load when making
> the
> joint up. It is my experienced opinion that in this assembly, that is a
> lost cause.
>
> Years back, I went around on this subject just for myself. I carry these
> fasteners as spares and a torque wrench because they could be very difficult
> to source on the road. We have a 23' coach, and my capability to carry
> spares is very limited. I tried, but I could not effectively cross-drill
> the
> heads. I wanted to safety wire those guys. If I could find drive on
> lockers, that would be good to, but those are kind of a specific part.
>
> Fred and Emery....
> The assembly manual calls out 12ea of the single part number.
>
> Matt - working hard at not freezing his buns off -
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com

 

[emerystora]

It has been pointed out to me by a very knowledgeable GMC owner that doesn’t post here that I had typed the part number wrong. It should be 394777. I somehow dropped off a 7.

He also provided me a diagram that he had made of the bolt and washer many years back.

I have posted it to the GMCMH photos site.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g7130-axle-flange-bolt.html http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g7130-axle-flange-bolt.html

Note that you can use either a 7/16” or 11mm 12 point socket to tighten the bolt.

Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO

>
> Jim Hupy — You are very positive in your reply but please show me anywhere it says they are different lengths.
>
> I have checked the maintenance manual and it doesn’t say anything about the length. It just says to use new bolts and torque them to 75 ft lbs.
>
> I checked the parts book 78Z and on page 1-9 it shows one side with part number 39477 on diagram 1.006. It doesn’t show the other side.
> The part number it gives is 39477.
>
> So I went to the assembly manual and it shows there are 12 bolts part number 39477 with torque of 60:75 ft lbs.
>
> Where do you find that they are of different lengths? I would trust that the assembly manual is correct.
>
> I have replaced mine perhaps three times over the years and the ones I installed were all the same length.
>
> So, I decided to call Jim Kanomata and ask him. Jim confirmed to me that both sides take the same length bolt.
> He says that the reason some people have seen different lengths is because someone has used non-GMC belts which were a bit longer Then they had to grind some off the driver’s side so they didm’t hit the final drive.
> But if you use 12 bolts all the same, but right, length they work fine.
>
>
> Emery Stora
> 77 Kingsley
> Frederick, CO
>

>>
>> No, they are not.
>> Jim Hupy
>> Salem, Or
>> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>>

>>
>>> I am fairly certain that they are all the same length.
>>>
>>> Emery Stora
>>> 77 Kingsley
>>> Frederick, CO
>>>
>>>> On Jan 6, 2018, at 8:52 AM, Steve Weinstock

>>>>
>>>> I have a vague recollection that the bolts on one side are slightly
>>> longer than on the other side...
>>>>
>>>> Correct ??
>>>>
>>>> Or do I have the wrong (too long) bolts on one half ??
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Steve W
>>>> Southern California
>>>> 1973 23'. Yellow
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
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