Top tier gas question

Thank you for that explanation, Mark. It is basically
what I have expected. As one brand's advertisements
state "your weed eater doesn't deserve it."

D C "Mac" Macdonald
Amateur Radio K2GKK
Since 30 November '53
USAF and FAA, Retired
Member GMCMI & Classics
Oklahoma City, OK
"The Money Pit"
TZE166V101966
'76 ex-Palm Beach
k2gkk + hotmail dot com

________________________________
From: Mark Sawyer
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2021 11:24
To: gmclist
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: Top tier gas question

I'd read somewhere that some retailers are unable to get enough of some additives needed to be considered "Top Tier" at all locations. Since all
grades at all locations need to meet Top Tier requirements to be considered a retailer, brands on the list has been changing recently....

Yes, all "gasoline" comes from the same pipelines and can be considered a commodity....

It is the additive package that differentiates brands of gas. Detergents, anti-corrosives, stabilizers, etc.

As John L said, "Top Tier" is not a "marketing gimmick".. It is a set of requirements for those additives to keep your engine running well over time.
Yes, there is a fee that retailers need to pay Top Tier to be in the program, but if they don't meet the requirements, they can't "buy" their way on
to the list. It's probably the best way to ensure you are fueling your car with quality fuel.

You can geek out on the specifics of Top Tier over on Bob's the Oil Guy....
--
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX
 
AMOCO had long used unleaded gasoline and sold
three levels of octane. When I was stationed at
Keesler AFB (Biloxi, MS) in 1967 I bought fuel for
my 1965 Mustang (289 V-8) at the base gas station.
Gradually, the car got poorer fuel mileage and worse
performance (3,000 rpm maximum). I started to
fuel up at an AMOCO station (maybe mid-grade) and
soon the performance in all respects was back to
normal! Quality fuel DOES make a difference!

These days, I cannot detect any difference between
E-10 or E-0 fuels in modern vehicles. It might very
well be different in the GMC motorhome, but I can't
really say because the 455 engine turned out to be bad.

D C "Mac" Macdonald
Amateur Radio K2GKK
Since 30 November '53
USAF and FAA, Retired
Member GMCMI & Classics
Oklahoma City, OK
"The Money Pit"
TZE166V101966
'76 ex-Palm Beach
k2gkk + hotmail dot com

________________________________
From: Ken Burton
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2021 02:57
To: gmclist
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: Top tier gas question

You are correct. US and Canada both use R+M/2 AKI.

I would have said North American standard but from Mexico south (I believe) they all sell gas on the RON measurement method.

It is shame that over the years have used octane as a gimmick to denote quality. For years they used the terms regular or Ethyl. I remember when
Shell started using TCP as an advertising item. TCP is a lead scavenger. Then they slowly introduced regular, silver, or Gold, and regular and
premium. It is all an attempt to differentiate their brand from the next one down the street.

The US EPA has set so many tight controls on gasoline content now that they are all the same these days.

When they decided to encourage ethanol usage that was a place for the brands to try showing brand differences because it was not mandated everywhere.
The govt EPA standards on detergents had to be allowed to be opened up higher because ethanol is a great detergent. The brands seized on that and
used it for marketing purposes stating they that they were higher than EPA requirements.

Other things the EPA closely regulates is RVP (Reid Vapor Pressure) by setting standards by locality, usually by county, and time of year.

All of this stuff is available on the EPA's web site.

Try finding out what BP's "Invigorate" is and how much is used per gallon.

Sorry, I have not watched California's CARB (California Air Resources Board) and in Canada (I believe it is under Environment Canada CEPA). I do not
really know what they are doing there or have done in the past.

This is more than you ever wanted to know. Right?
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
 
> > Newer car computers adjust nearly everything when you use 87 octane instead
> > of 92. Some even adjust variable valve timing and ignition advance and fuel
> > injection pulse width. My turbo charged, intercooled, dual overhead cam,
> > fuel injected, 2.4 liter engine in my PT Dream Cruiser changes nearly
> > everything when regular is used. Really noticeable power reduction,
> > especially on high turbo boost conditions.
> > Jim Hupy
> > Salem, Oregon
>
> That's true, but my 94 Jag ECU doesn't do anything like that. The 95's do though. Fortunately things were factory set with enough latitude that I
> can burn regular with no problem. I don't even have to switch to sport mode to get it to haul ass, so regular is good enough for me.
>
> Larry

I had 1990 Audi I-5 engines that would back off the timing upon detecting knock, most cars with knock sensors will do this, I think my '87 Audi 5k
turbo did it too. You could really notice the power loss when it backed off, so 91 octane for them.

--
Burl Vibert
Kingston, Ontario
1976 GMC 26 foot, Sheridan reno, don't know original model but we call her Roxie
 
Again, Top Tier is a specific detergent package, not octane rating system.
My question is why BP, a major brand is not Top Tier.

To diverge, and back to GMCs, the one time I bought pure gas leaving the Amana convention, I had pinging on the way home and no improved MPG, even
heading eastbound. Ethanol definitely helps raise octane or at least smooths combustion in my experience.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
 
Several years ago, a group of GMC Motorhomes crossed Canada coast to coast.
We all stopped at the same gas stations, and filled up each time with their
version of Supreme non ethanol gasoline that had a pump octane rating of
92. The gasoline stations were Petro Canada. Some of the coaches had 455
Olds engines, some 403 Olds engines and a 500 Cadillac powered one. Fuel
stops were first thing in the morning, and on long days, at mid day as
well. Some flat land, and some steep grades and Canadian Rockies at 10,000
feet or more. All of the coaches ran extremely well. Our coach, a 403
equipped 26 foot Royale, showed an overall improvement in mileage on the
magnitude of 3 mpg vs.ethanol laced fuel. Other coaches also described
similar improvements in mileage. My tailpipe was light grey, no sign of
carbon. Upon re-entering the USA near Niagra, New York, we filled up at a
self service gas station that had a dinosaur as a mascot. About 2 miles
down the road, our coach began to buck and snort and act like it was
running out of gas. As soon as I had used 1/2 tank or so, I filled up at a
Chevron Station with 87 octane, which we usually use in the states. As we
burned off the Dinosaur gas the drivability improved. Once we were cleared
of the evil brew, no further drivability issues were noticed the rest of
the way home to Oregon.
So, what did this prove? In our case, if we can get non ethanol gas we
will use that. Otherwise, we use Chevron Regular 87 octane. Top tier? I
don't know if it is real or an ad gimmick.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 8:51 AM John R. Lebetski
wrote:

> Again, Top Tier is a specific detergent package, not octane rating system.
> My question is why BP, a major brand is not Top Tier.
>
> To diverge, and back to GMCs, the one time I bought pure gas leaving the
> Amana convention, I had pinging on the way home and no improved MPG, even
> heading eastbound. Ethanol definitely helps raise octane or at least
> smooths combustion in my experience.
> --
> John Lebetski
> Woodstock, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
 
> I had 1990 Audi I-5 engines that would back off the timing upon detecting knock, most cars with knock sensors will do this, I think my '87 Audi 5k
> turbo did it too. You could really notice the power loss when it backed off, so 91 octane for them.

The Jag doesn't have knock sensors. I remember those Audi I-5s. Weren't they famed for exploding on the Coquihalla? 8o :)

Larry

--
Larry - Victoria BC -

1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS
exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
 
Most definitely we have the same thing same winter summer RVP requirements. That is what I was referring to previously about being regulated by
locality. Usually these are in effect May through Sept 1 or 15.

Go here to look up your area:

https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/P1006OTY.txt?ZyActionD=ZyDocument&Client=EPA&Index=2006%20Thru%202010&Docs=&Query=&Time=&EndTime=&SearchMethod=1&TocRestrict=n&Toc=&TocEntry=&QField=&QFieldYear=&QFieldMonth=&QFieldDay=&UseQField=&IntQFieldOp=0&ExtQFieldOp=0&XmlQuery=&File=D%3A%5CZYFILES%5CINDEX%20DATA%5C06THRU10%5CTXT%5C00000016%5CP1006OTY.txt&User=ANONYMOUS&Password=anonymous&SortMethod=h%7C-&MaximumDocuments=1&FuzzyDegree=0&ImageQuality=r75g8/r75g8/x150y150g16/i425&Display=hpfr&DefSeekPage=x&SearchBack=ZyActionL&Back=ZyActionS&BackDesc=Results%20page&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=5&slide

--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
What is in the specific detergent package you are referring to other than 9 to 11% ethanol?
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
Burl,

At least in Michigan we do have "winter gas". This last year it caused me a great deal of grief. Because of the Wuhan flu, we did very little of
anything for that year or most of the next. Problem:: In November of 2019, I fueled the Chaumière for her winter storage. Then, more than we took
one run in the next 18 months. She ran poorly at best for that run. When we got her out 4 months later it was even worse. We still had most of a
full fuel load. We have vapor lock trouble. We had vapor lock trouble until we had replaced all of that old winter gas. I would have thought the
butane would have left, but it was still vapor locking until we got most of the old fuel burned off. With a 450 mile tank range, that was still not
clear when we got to Chippewa Falls that is only 650 miles.

An interesting note for those following this thread, early in our serious excursions with the coach I monitored the alcohol content of the purchased
fuel along the way. Just as Jim described, the fuel rate increased (reduced MPG) by just about exactly the percentage of alcohol as measured. So,
when I bought crapahol fuel, that added corn liquor was just filler to increase the price as far as I could tell. Unfortunately, every place I could
buy real fuel it was enough more expensive so it was not economically prudent to buy it. I could live with the lower tank range.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
Matt,

Since our county was forced by the EPA into the Chicago non-attainment area we have about 20 years longer putting up with 10% craponol laced fuel.
Luckily for us the next county east is outside of the non-attainment area and lots of people bought fuel out of the county. I have years of
comparison data in mileage differences During that time I had a territory that covered several states and bought lots of fuel outside the
non-attainment area. My mileage comparisons on multiple GM and Hondas vehicles show an 11% average loss when using craponol diluted fuel. There are
several stations in the next county that sell real fuel. The station at Walmart / Murphy and BP are the two I go to for E-0 when I am in the area.
If you are coming through the area, the Murphy station is 2 blocks north of the Michigan City US421 on exit on of I-94.

My experience mirrors yours.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
There is an unseen benefit to government agencies with alcohol blended
fuels. We all simply use more of the stuff. As the fuel goes out the hose,
the taxes add up. More fuel use, more revenue for the government. Many of
them are wringing their hands, gnashing their teeth, while moaning out loud
because EV's don't use any fuel and there is a loss of tax revenue as a
result. Oregon is studying per mile traveled as a replacement for those
lost taxes. Even to the point of installing recording odometers linked
electronically to the dept of revenue. Ah yes, and so it goes.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon

> Matt,
>
> Since our county was forced by the EPA into the Chicago non-attainment
> area we have about 20 years longer putting up with 10% craponol laced fuel.
> Luckily for us the next county east is outside of the non-attainment area
> and lots of people bought fuel out of the county. I have years of
> comparison data in mileage differences During that time I had a
> territory that covered several states and bought lots of fuel outside the
> non-attainment area. My mileage comparisons on multiple GM and Hondas
> vehicles show an 11% average loss when using craponol diluted fuel. There
> are
> several stations in the next county that sell real fuel. The station at
> Walmart / Murphy and BP are the two I go to for E-0 when I am in the area.
> If you are coming through the area, the Murphy station is 2 blocks north
> of the Michigan City US421 on exit on of I-94.
>
> My experience mirrors yours.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
 
I strongly expect that within 5 years or so we'll all have to equip our
cars (that don't come pre-equipped) with a bluetooth (or similar) connected
odometer that will talk to strategically located "miles collectors" for
"our" tax departments. We'll get periodic bills for miles driven, just
like water or light bills. I don't see how it can be otherwise with EV's
becoming common. We may even be charged a different per mile
rate depending upon the road's "quality".

Ken H.

> There is an unseen benefit to government agencies with alcohol blended
> fuels. We all simply use more of the stuff. As the fuel goes out the hose,
> the taxes add up. More fuel use, more revenue for the government. Many of
> them are wringing their hands, gnashing their teeth, while moaning out loud
> because EV's don't use any fuel and there is a loss of tax revenue as a
> result. Oregon is studying per mile traveled as a replacement for those
> lost taxes. Even to the point of installing recording odometers linked
> electronically to the dept of revenue. Ah yes, and so it goes.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Oregon
>

>
> > Matt,
> >
> > Since our county was forced by the EPA into the Chicago non-attainment
> > area we have about 20 years longer putting up with 10% craponol laced
> fuel.
> > Luckily for us the next county east is outside of the non-attainment area
> > and lots of people bought fuel out of the county. I have years of
> > comparison data in mileage differences During that time I had a
> > territory that covered several states and bought lots of fuel outside the
> > non-attainment area. My mileage comparisons on multiple GM and Hondas
> > vehicles show an 11% average loss when using craponol diluted fuel.
> There
> > are
> > several stations in the next county that sell real fuel. The station at
> > Walmart / Murphy and BP are the two I go to for E-0 when I am in the
> area.
> > If you are coming through the area, the Murphy station is 2 blocks north
> > of the Michigan City US421 on exit on of I-94.
> >
> > My experience mirrors yours.
> > --
> > Ken Burton - N9KB
> > 76 Palm Beach
> > Hebron, Indiana
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
 
> I strongly expect that within 5 years or so we'll all have to equip our
> cars (that don't come pre-equipped) with a bluetooth (or similar) connected
> odometer that will talk to strategically located "miles collectors" for
> "our" tax departments. We'll get periodic bills for miles driven, just
> like water or light bills. I don't see how it can be otherwise with EV's
> becoming common. We may even be charged a different per mile
> rate depending upon the road's "quality".
>
> Ken H.
>

That has been the direction some states have headed for the last 50 years. In my state we had only one toll road that was built before the Interstate
system. It was suppose to be made free after the bonds were paid off. Well instead of becoming free they leased it out on a 75 year contract and were
paid 3.8 Billion up front. When the company went bankrupt after a few years, an Australian company paid 5.73 billion to take it over for 66 years.
Where does all of that money eventually come from? Us the users.

We had another freeway (Indiana 912) that the bridge fell down once, was replaced, and after a few years was condemned. The state refused to replace
it. A private company bought the rights to the road, replaced the bridge, and now charges tolls. No one uses it because the tolls are exorbitant.
They advertise on the radio, put up bill boards along the highway but the customers do not come. There are no toll booths. They do everything by
transponder and license plate readers.

The worse one here is the new bridge they built to Louisville, Kentucky. They also made it toll ($5.00 I think) There were already two other free
ones, so they simply added tolls to them forcing users to pay a toll on existing ones plus the new bridges.

We already have toll and truck scale transponders and readers. Simply make a new transponder and require it to be plugged into the OBDII port of you
car to read you accumulated mileage via WiFi, Blue tooth or cell phone. My Equinox came already equipped with ON Star which I shut off and removed
completely. They did not ask if I wanted it.

The Illinois System is much worse. From their web site they say they average just under $1,000,000 a day in toll collections and that is just in NE
Illinois and one road across the state. I paid them just under $300 last year myself and I do not even live in that state.

It is coming. I just do not know how soon.



--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
 
Has anyone done a cost /benefit analysis on non ethanol gas ?
Is the MPG gain worth it?
I mean if you get 9 mpg at $3 per gallon and no ethanol gets you 12 mpg.
that means:
3 $/gal / (9 miles/gal) = 0.33 $/mile
0.33 $/mile * (12 miles /gallon) = $3.96 per gallon

if the gas is less than $3.96 / gallon, non ethanol is cheaper per mile. Right?
Thats quite a bit of price headroom!

Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View MN
76 exRoyale
MicroLevelhttp://www.gmcmotorhomemarketplace.com/vasilakes/microlevel_intro.pdf

________________________________
From: Matt Colie
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2021 5:47 PM
To: gmclist
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: Top tier gas question

Burl,

At least in Michigan we do have "winter gas". This last year it caused me a great deal of grief. Because of the Wuhan flu, we did very little of
anything for that year or most of the next. Problem:: In November of 2019, I fueled the Chaumière for her winter storage. Then, more than we took
one run in the next 18 months. She ran poorly at best for that run. When we got her out 4 months later it was even worse. We still had most of a
full fuel load. We have vapor lock trouble. We had vapor lock trouble until we had replaced all of that old winter gas. I would have thought the
butane would have left, but it was still vapor locking until we got most of the old fuel burned off. With a 450 mile tank range, that was still not
clear when we got to Chippewa Falls that is only 650 miles.

An interesting note for those following this thread, early in our serious excursions with the coach I monitored the alcohol content of the purchased
fuel along the way. Just as Jim described, the fuel rate increased (reduced MPG) by just about exactly the percentage of alcohol as measured. So,
when I bought crapahol fuel, that added corn liquor was just filler to increase the price as far as I could tell. Unfortunately, every place I could
buy real fuel it was enough more expensive so it was not economically prudent to buy it. I could live with the lower tank range.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
 
Regular gas is hovering around $4.00/USgallon in BC but $4 Canadian is also roughly US$3.11 so I'm petrified to fill up in case I make the wrong
choice 8o ...and ... I have to fill up the TZE TODAY!!!! (the powers that be ended the 30 litre maximum fill yesterday)

Larry
--
Larry - Victoria BC -

1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS
exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
 
> Newer car computers adjust nearly everything when you use 87 octane instead
> of 92. Some even adjust variable valve timing and ignition advance and fuel
> injection pulse width. My turbo charged, intercooled, dual overhead cam,
> fuel injected, 2.4 liter engine in my PT Dream Cruiser changes nearly
> everything when regular is used. Really noticeable power reduction,
> especially on high turbo boost conditions.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Oregon

That's true, but my 94 Jag ECU doesn't do anything like that. The 95's do though. Fortunately things were factory set with enough latitude that I can
burn regular with no problem. I don't even have to switch to sport mode to get it to haul ass, so regular is good enough for me.

Larry

--
Larry - Victoria BC -

1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS
exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
 
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