Switch Pitch

joe travis

New member
Jul 25, 2000
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Didn't get a lot of response from those of you at gmcnet on my question
about the switch-pitch /6-speed trans. [a version sold by Caspro]. But want
to thank Billy Massey for sending me what he had collected on gmcnet from
old posts (I contacted him seperately at his site).

I eventually found Bruce Roe's name and e-mail. As I understand it, he's he
fellow who designed the "fuzzy logic" controller chip that Caspro uses in
their "6-speed transmission". Thought I'd share Bruce's response to me.

Joe Travis
2200 Briggs Ave.
Parsons, Ks 67357
jtravis

- ----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Cc:
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 7:22 PM
Subject: Switch Pitch

> Joe, Try my new address at bcroe
>
> The switch pitch torque converter gives you a dual
> range in every gear. I like to think to think of them as the
> "performance" and "economy" ranges. The performance
> range gives a higher stall speed than a standard
> converter, with several benefits. First, the torque
> multiplication is about 2.5 versus standard 2, or an
> extra 25%. Second, the engine will be able to pick up
> about an extra 500 rpm, allowing it to get more into its
> best power and torque range starting up. Multiply
> both these together and you have a real advantage. I
> use a 2.41 differential on a 4100 lb car which will
> outperform a 2.73 standard, 0-60 is 7.5 seconds with
> the switch pitch. Third, the shifts will be noticeably
> smoother
>
> The performance range is less efficient, and for difficult
> situations a motorhome needs a trans temperature
> gauge to make sure you get out of the performance
> range in a minute or so. Usually 30 seconds is all
> you will need. Once you switch to the economy range
> the converter will be slightly tighter than a compromise
> design standard converter, so you will probably see
> some improvement in gas milage. I figure 3 to 5% on
> my cars
>
> At high engine speeds, all torque converters decrease
> gradually to a 1:1 torque in to out. Since you will not be
> using performance mode for cruising, additional torque
> here will require different gears. The Caspro Power
> Drive is a pretty good unit. If your trans is ready for a
> rebuild, it solves the problem of getting a new chain and
> sprocket set. I am using one in reverse on my car to
> maximize economy, while a switch pitch converter gives
> me plenty of performance. There are of course other
> options with the final drive ratio
>
> The usual way to operate the switch pitch is to use
> performance range from standstill at least into second
> and possibly into third in a motorhome. Economy range
> would be used after about 30 seconds. A car would be
> set to cover all shifts in performance mode, around
> 14 seconds
>
> Caspro uses a Switch Pitch trans on their own GMC
> motor home. The electronic controller makes this
> function automatic, instead of a toggle switch you are
> always playing with. The same is true on my cars,
> which are more responsive and so smooth many
> people mention it. An override switch is used on
> motorhomes for special situations
>
> I have heard quite a bit of talk about using switch pitch
> in other motor homes, but I don't have any direct info.
> Brent Covey did some transmission work on
> motorhomes lately. You might ask him if any were
> converted to switch pitch at BrentCovey
>
> I sell a few of the switch pitch controllers to car owners
> who already have a switch pitch trans every year. I just
> say that if they don't think its worth the money, I will buy
> it back. No one has ever asked for a refund. Good luck
> on your project. Bruce Roe
>
 
Tom,

The answer is in Bruce Roe's comment below. The "performance" range is less
efficient, the power not transmitted is converted to heat. Bruce is pretty
much the "guru" for switch pitch transmissions.

Patrick

>
> Contrary to what others are saying there is no problem
> with overheating in a switch pitch transmission. If
> there is anyone that has experience with one
> overheating I would be interested in knowing where you
> think the extra heat is coming from.
>

>
> >> The performance range is less efficient, and for difficult
> >> situations a motorhome needs a trans temperature
> >> gauge to make sure you get out of the performance
> >> range in a minute or so. Usually 30 seconds is all
> >> you will need. Once you switch to the economy range
> >> the converter will be slightly tighter than a compromise
> >> design standard converter, so you will probably see
> >> some improvement in gas milage. I figure 3 to 5% on
> >> my cars
 
Tom,

It's no myth that the additional "slippage" from high stall torque
converters results in additional heat generated vs. their low stall
counterparts.

Patrick

>
> Patrick I think that this is one of the other "myths" that
> have grown up around the toronado engine/switch pitch
> transmission.
 
I have no ability to know who is right and who is wrong in this debate
but even I can benefit from a reasonable exchange of experiences and
ideas. Way to go guys!

Dave Greenberg

> But thats not the point Patrick. To many times people get hung up on
> what
> they perceive to be a problem. The point is does it produce enough
> additional heat to cause a problem in the application in the GMC
> motorhome,
> and the answer is clearly no it does not. There is slippage in the
> original
> torque converter as well, does that cause a problem? NOt that I have
> ever
> heard first hand. Is there a disclaimer with the caspro unit that
> allows it
> to be used for only one minute as someone claimed? Not that I have
> heard.
>
> I am of the opinion that it is just more old wives tales. Someone
> installed
> a switch pitch in a GMC motorhome, there cooling system overheated
> and right
> off it was the trannys fault. Happens far to many times and the real
> problem
> is never resolved.
>
> tom
>
>

> >Tom,
> >
> >It's no myth that the additional "slippage" from high stall torque
> >converters results in additional heat generated vs. their low stall
> >counterparts.
> >
> >Patrick
> >
> >

> >>
> >> Patrick I think that this is one of the other "myths" that
> >> have grown up around the toronado engine/switch pitch
> >> transmission.
> >
> >
>
 
Thanks, Tom & Patrick for your imput, but back to my initial questions;

>Does anyone out there have one in their GMC?
>If not, has anyone driven a GMC with one?

What does it 'feel' like?
Did it have the 'fuzzy logic' controller?
How low is low(ist) gear?

>Which are the 'switched' gears?
>
> Caspro advertizes:
>1) lower than normal first
>2) first
>3) lower than normal second
>4) higher than normal second
>5) lower than normal third
>6) higher than normal third

Obviously 1,3 & 5 are the 'performance' ratios and 2, 4, & 5 are the economy
ratios. Are the 'economy' ratios the same as the standard GMC transmission?

If 'economy' WERE the same ratios as the 'standard' GMC transmission, one
would expect to see Caspro's ad read;
1) lower than normal first
2) first
3) lower than normal second
4) second
5) lower than normal third
5) third

Perhaps I'm reading too much into Bruce's comment below, but he seems to
suggest that there is a design difference - the 'switch-pitch' being
'tighter' ... does that change include somewhat different ratios?

"Once you switch to the economy range the converter will be slightly tighter
than a compromise design standard converter, so you will probably see some
improvement in gas milage. I figure 3 to 5% on my cars".

Does someone have some gear ratio 'numbers' I can play with? Obviously a
'real world' application would have to consider the choice of rear end
ratios, overall tire diameter, etc., etc. (not to mention a 'freshened'
engine with a heck of a lot more grunt) but I sure like to play with
numbers, make graphs, fantasize (all I can afford to do right now).

Again, thanks for the feed back,

Joe Travis
2200 Briggs Ave.
Parsons, Ks 67357
jtravis
 
Joe:

I know one GMCer, Don Brown of W Lafayette IN, and is not on the GMCnet, who has
been running a switch pitch transmission since I believe, about 1991, now. He has
driven it over 80,000 miles since I talked to him about it last year, without any
problems. I don't believe he has the Bruce's "fuzzy logic" controller, though.

Paul Bartz

P. S. by the way he does have e-mail capability if you would like to correspond
with him. However, he is in Alaska during this summer.

From: owner-gmcmotorhome
[mailto:owner-gmcmotorhome]On Behalf Of Joe Travis
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 11:31 PM

Thanks, Tom & Patrick for your imput, but back to my initial questions;

>Does anyone out there have one in their GMC?
>If not, has anyone driven a GMC with one?

What does it 'feel' like?
Did it have the 'fuzzy logic' controller?
How low is low(ist) gear?

>Which are the 'switched' gears?
>
> Caspro advertizes:
>1) lower than normal first
>2) first
>3) lower than normal second
>4) higher than normal second
>5) lower than normal third
>6) higher than normal third

Obviously 1,3 & 5 are the 'performance' ratios and 2, 4, & 5 are the economy
ratios. Are the 'economy' ratios the same as the standard GMC transmission?

If 'economy' WERE the same ratios as the 'standard' GMC transmission, one
would expect to see Caspro's ad read;
1) lower than normal first
2) first
3) lower than normal second
4) second
5) lower than normal third
5) third

Perhaps I'm reading too much into Bruce's comment below, but he seems to
suggest that there is a design difference - the 'switch-pitch' being
'tighter' ... does that change include somewhat different ratios?

"Once you switch to the economy range the converter will be slightly tighter
than a compromise design standard converter, so you will probably see some
improvement in gas milage. I figure 3 to 5% on my cars".

Does someone have some gear ratio 'numbers' I can play with? Obviously a
'real world' application would have to consider the choice of rear end
ratios, overall tire diameter, etc., etc. (not to mention a 'freshened'
engine with a heck of a lot more grunt) but I sure like to play with
numbers, make graphs, fantasize (all I can afford to do right now).

Again, thanks for the feed back,

Joe Travis
2200 Briggs Ave.
Parsons, Ks 67357
jtravis
 
Just got in from 14 hour work day at the office. Got nothing done on the list
today, three days left and 14 items left including minor details like the valve
cover leaking a quart every 100 miles. At this point my logic is fuzzy as well.

Ron and Julie
73 Painted Desert

> Thanks, Tom & Patrick for your imput, but back to my initial questions;
>
> >Does anyone out there have one in their GMC?
> >If not, has anyone driven a GMC with one?
>
> What does it 'feel' like?
> Did it have the 'fuzzy logic' controller?
> How low is low(ist) gear?
>
> >Which are the 'switched' gears?
> >
> > Caspro advertizes:
> >1) lower than normal first
> >2) first
> >3) lower than normal second
> >4) higher than normal second
> >5) lower than normal third
> >6) higher than normal third
>
> Obviously 1,3 & 5 are the 'performance' ratios and 2, 4, & 5 are the economy
> ratios. Are the 'economy' ratios the same as the standard GMC transmission?
>
> If 'economy' WERE the same ratios as the 'standard' GMC transmission, one
> would expect to see Caspro's ad read;
> 1) lower than normal first
> 2) first
> 3) lower than normal second
> 4) second
> 5) lower than normal third
> 5) third
>
> Perhaps I'm reading too much into Bruce's comment below, but he seems to
> suggest that there is a design difference - the 'switch-pitch' being
> 'tighter' ... does that change include somewhat different ratios?
>
> "Once you switch to the economy range the converter will be slightly tighter
> than a compromise design standard converter, so you will probably see some
> improvement in gas milage. I figure 3 to 5% on my cars".
>
> Does someone have some gear ratio 'numbers' I can play with? Obviously a
> 'real world' application would have to consider the choice of rear end
> ratios, overall tire diameter, etc., etc. (not to mention a 'freshened'
> engine with a heck of a lot more grunt) but I sure like to play with
> numbers, make graphs, fantasize (all I can afford to do right now).
>
> Again, thanks for the feed back,
>
> Joe Travis
> 2200 Briggs Ave.
> Parsons, Ks 67357
> jtravis
 
Subject: GMC: Switch Pitch

>Thanks, Tom & Patrick for your input, but back to my initial questions;

>>Does anyone out there have one in their GMC?
>>If not, has anyone driven a GMC with one?

>What does it 'feel' like?
>Did it have the 'fuzzy logic' controller?
>How low is low(ist) gear?
>Joe Travis

Thanks Joe for asking these questions. I have one of these transmissions
sitting in my garage and those are the same things I want to
know..............Terry

P.S. one more question..What is the cost of the fuzzy logic controller??

Terry & Diane Skinner
Webfooted in Washington
 
>Does anyone out there have one in their GMC?
>If not, has anyone driven a GMC with one?

I don't have it installed yet but when it is, it will have a manual
switch.

What does it 'feel' like?

I have had one in a car and it feels like a clutch that is slipping a
little.

Did it have the 'fuzzy logic' controller?
How low is low(ist) gear?

The gears remain the same, it's the stall speed that changes.

>Which are the 'switched' gears?
All 3 gears are effected by the higher and stock stall rpm

> Caspro advertizes:
>1) lower than normal first

Nope! just feels like it because it requires a slightly higher rpm to
accelerate to any given speed.

>3) lower than normal second
Nope, same as above.

>4) higher than normal second
Nope, same as above.

>5) lower than normal third
>6) higher than normal third

Obviously 1,3 & 5 are the 'performance' ratios and 2, 4, & 5 are the
economy
ratios. Are the 'economy' ratios the same as the standard GMC
transmission?

Again, the three forward drive ratios remain unchanged. No new gears are
added to the transmission.

Stall speed is difficult to explain. A switch pitch transmission is a
bit of a misnomer. It's really the torque converter that has two
different levels of efficiency that can be selected through a
modification to the transmission. It's actually the ability of the
stator vanes in the converter to be switched to two different angles.
In order to understand how it works look at the torque convertor as a
pump driven by the engine. As with any pump, if it is started under full
load, it takes the engine time to get up to any level of operating
efficiency. However, if were able to bring the engine up to a level of
operating efficiency before the load is applied it would result in more
power being applied when most needed, at startup. This is lakin to
slipping the clutch with a manual transmission. Modern overdrive
transmissions operate in much the same way in the 3rd and 4th gears. (GM
products.) Once the vehicle reaches a certain speed/load in overdrive,
you can feel the converter lock up and engine RPM drops about 200 rpm.
With a switch pitch unit, the "low" setting results in about 3-400 rpm
difference under similar circumstances.
Brent Covey (IIRC) posted an excellent operational description here
sometime in the past and if I"ve muddied the waters here perhaps he'll
chime in.
Regards,
Steve
________________________________________________________________
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Sounds like the original DynaFlow,no shift, just smooth constant
power.Pulled BIG OLE Buicks around for a long time.
Jim Penrod Jus hangin out an bein cool in Lake Placid, F.L.A.
 
Steve,
Good explanation. One question. I'm used to airplanes and stall speed
refers to the speed at which air quits flowing smoothly over the wings and
lift goes away. What does it mean in the case of torque converter?
Bob McLaughlin

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-gmcmotorhome
[mailto:owner-gmcmotorhome]On Behalf Of Steve D
Ferguson
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 1:21 PM
To: gmcmotorhome
Subject: GMC: Switch Pitch

>Does anyone out there have one in their GMC?
>If not, has anyone driven a GMC with one?

I don't have it installed yet but when it is, it will have a manual
switch.

What does it 'feel' like?

I have had one in a car and it feels like a clutch that is slipping a
little.

Did it have the 'fuzzy logic' controller?
How low is low(ist) gear?

The gears remain the same, it's the stall speed that changes.

>Which are the 'switched' gears?
All 3 gears are effected by the higher and stock stall rpm

> Caspro advertizes:
>1) lower than normal first

Nope! just feels like it because it requires a slightly higher rpm to
accelerate to any given speed.

>3) lower than normal second
Nope, same as above.

>4) higher than normal second
Nope, same as above.

>5) lower than normal third
>6) higher than normal third

Obviously 1,3 & 5 are the 'performance' ratios and 2, 4, & 5 are the
economy
ratios. Are the 'economy' ratios the same as the standard GMC
transmission?

Again, the three forward drive ratios remain unchanged. No new gears are
added to the transmission.

Stall speed is difficult to explain. A switch pitch transmission is a
bit of a misnomer. It's really the torque converter that has two
different levels of efficiency that can be selected through a
modification to the transmission. It's actually the ability of the
stator vanes in the converter to be switched to two different angles.
In order to understand how it works look at the torque convertor as a
pump driven by the engine. As with any pump, if it is started under full
load, it takes the engine time to get up to any level of operating
efficiency. However, if were able to bring the engine up to a level of
operating efficiency before the load is applied it would result in more
power being applied when most needed, at startup. This is lakin to
slipping the clutch with a manual transmission. Modern overdrive
transmissions operate in much the same way in the 3rd and 4th gears. (GM
products.) Once the vehicle reaches a certain speed/load in overdrive,
you can feel the converter lock up and engine RPM drops about 200 rpm.
With a switch pitch unit, the "low" setting results in about 3-400 rpm
difference under similar circumstances.
Brent Covey (IIRC) posted an excellent operational description here
sometime in the past and if I"ve muddied the waters here perhaps he'll
chime in.
Regards,
Steve
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
 
The fuzzy logic controller is ~ $200.00 from Bruce Roe. This controller operates
off of sensing the vacuum and time.

Also, by the way, Dick Paterson runs a switch pitch transmission in his coach, and
I believe controls it with a switch.

Paul Bartz

From: owner-gmcmotorhome
[mailto:owner-gmcmotorhome]On Behalf Of Terry & Diane Skinner
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 11:17 AM

Subject: GMC: Switch Pitch

>Thanks, Tom & Patrick for your input, but back to my initial questions;

>>Does anyone out there have one in their GMC?
>>If not, has anyone driven a GMC with one?

>What does it 'feel' like?
>Did it have the 'fuzzy logic' controller?
>How low is low(ist) gear?
>Joe Travis

Thanks Joe for asking these questions. I have one of these transmissions
sitting in my garage and those are the same things I want to
know..............Terry

P.S. one more question..What is the cost of the fuzzy logic controller??

Terry & Diane Skinner
Webfooted in Washington