Second Starter Motor Burned out

B

Balaboys

Member
Jun 21, 2021
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0
6
Good Morning,We recently picked up a very nice 76 Glenbrook with 76,000 miles.  The TZE is is very nice shape, refurbished in 2009 and always stored indoors. Last week the starter quit, it would only make a loud click, but not rotate to the point it started to smoke.  I had it rebuilt, checked battery and cables but still burned out the rebuilt starter on the first start.  The rebuilt starter worked perfectly for the first start, but there was a loud squealing sound coming from the engine/drivetrain area.  I shut the motor off, had a quick look and was not able to start again.  Same loud click, but I did not push the rebuilt one to the point of getting the unit hot.  There is a possibility the start power is staying on and keeping the solenoid engaged.  I have not confirmed this, but it is likely the problem, possibly the ignition switched or the relay/solenoid on the firewall or ???I welcome and appreciate any feedback.Thank you,
Eric & Christine Roell76 Glenbrook
 
there is an ignition switch on the lower part of column. kinda on the driver side between lower dash and floor(closer to dash) bolted to the column.
a rod running down steering activates it from the actual key tumbler.

you can check that switch or replace it easy and cheap enough.... there is a little adjustment to it.

then the wire is generally a heavier purple wire that goes through a "neutral safety" switch on the back at the very base of the steering column
almost to the floor.

from there it usually goes into harness and over through the fuse panel(not fused there- just passes through), out the firewall at the fuse panel,
into the harness that goes to the engine. it exits that harness at the front passenger side, drops down the front corner of the engine where it
then runs back along oil lines to the starter and hits the starter there.

you can sometimes rig up a few feet of wire and a light bulb circuit and wire in the hot side of that light off the small starter post it is hooked
up to, to get a light into the drivers compartment where you can see it. that will tell you if the starter is being energized.

--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
 
Thanks Jon, very helpful.
On Monday, June 21, 2021, 10:33:23 a.m. EDT, Jon Roche wrote:

there is an ignition switch on the lower part of column.  kinda on the driver side between lower dash and floor(closer to dash) bolted to the column.
  a rod running down steering  activates it from the actual key tumbler.

you can check that switch or replace it easy and cheap enough....  there is a little adjustment to it.

then the wire is generally a heavier purple wire that goes through a "neutral safety" switch on the back at the very base of the steering column
almost to the floor. 

from there it usually goes into harness and over through the fuse panel(not fused there- just passes through), out the firewall at the fuse panel, 
into the harness that goes to the engine.    it exits that harness at the front passenger side, drops down the front corner of the engine where it
then runs back along oil lines to the starter and hits the starter there.

you can sometimes rig up a few feet of wire and a light bulb circuit  and wire in the hot side of that light off the small starter post it is hooked
up to,  to get a light into the drivers compartment where you can see it.  that will tell you if the starter is being energized. 

--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
 
Chris,

Welcome to the group, family, cult, asylum.....

First things first...
Do the electrical check out that Jon described. If that comes to nothing, then we need to look further.
A squeal, as you noted, is frequently a symptom of a started not dis-engaging when the engine has started.
It means that the solenoid did not pull the drive back from the ring gear.
- This can be a result of 2 things: The crank signal was still present or the engagement system has failed.
If the start signal to the solenoid was locked on, the engine would have tried to start when the ignition switch was in the RUN position.
If it is the engagement system, then the starter needs help and the squeal was either the sprag clutch on the drive gear or the bearing in the started
screaming.

You say you had it rebuilt....
Was this a store front parts store rebuild exchange?? Or a real rebuilder?
If the former, take it back. Someone that does not care made a mistake.
If it is the later, still take it back and ask the guy what happened.
As said, if you check out the electrics and they are good, the rebuilder guy will know what happened as soon as he has it on a bench.

Now the really important thing. You found you way her and that is very good. What you may not understand is that everybody here has a not so hidden
agenda. That agenda is to see to it that you appreciate both the coach itself and what it can do for you. It is not quite a magic carpet, but it
will be close. It is much more than a big new toy because it is your connection to this community of amazingly supportive and helping people. We all
are eager to make your coach enjoyable.

To this end, please fill in a more complete sigfile. I work the forum and don't know how to do this from the mailing list end. You have a good
start, but if you were to include a geographic reference, that might be a help. This community is so tight, that if you are having a problem that
someone in striking range knows how to handle, you might get hands on help. I have been both sides of this. It is comforting.

We have your name (we like to know who we are helping), and that it is a 76 Glenbrook (Was Roell the restorer?) but please include any significant
mods or upgrades as they may make a difference. Finally, if we know where you are, we know your climate and someone may be close by. Example, if you
were in striking range, I would come by with my spare starter. A started is the only heavy spare I carry.

This community so reminds me of that of the waterment of my own world that I have taken to welcoming new owners that show here with a paraphrase of
the greeting you would get there as a new owner or with a new vessel. So,

May the Good Lord bless this coach and all those that set forth within her.

Welcome Eric and Christine

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
Just want to mention that the solenoid on the firewall has nothing to do with your problem. You might be thinking FORD but the solenoid on the
firewall is to parallel the batteries during BOOST. You could just have a bad run of rebuilt starters or it is not sitting right when installed. Hard
to say without hearing what is going on, but your timing could be too advanced or someone has patched manifold vacuum instead of ported to the
distributor.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
 
Good Afternoon Matt,I was not aware that pictures could not be sent on thi=
s email chat.=C2=A0 Here is my message from yesterday...
----- Forwarded Message -----From:=C2=A0Chris McBride To=
:=C2=A0gmclist Sent:=C2=A0Monday, =
June 21, 2021, 05:51:07 p.m. EDTSubject:=C2=A0Re: [GMCnet] Re: Second Start=
er Motor Burned out
Good Afternoon Matt,Many thanks for the kind, welcoming words.Although this=
GMC is new to us, we are no strangers to GMC life, as my father had a coup=
le different ones in the 80's and 90's.=C2=A0 We were fortunate enough to b=
orrow them and take trips to Florida, Cape Cod, Northern Ontario and other =
small trips.=C2=A0 With this experience and my background with automobile, =
motorcycle and boat repairs since I was 12, I should be able to keep this c=
oach going with minimal downtime.We are located in Aurora, Ontario and we w=
ill keep the coach at our Muskoka cottage for the summers.We purchased the =
coach as is and it requires some TLC to get it road ready, but we have cott=
age renovation work that is taking precedence and we will focus on the coac=
h in August.I have not noticed a lot of mechanical upgrades, but it was ref=
urbished inside and out in 2009 and everything is in very good shape.=C2=
=A0 I do know it has a macerator for the the sewage, and new compressor for=
the suspension, Alcoa wheels and a lot of cosmetic items.=C2=A0 I have att=
ached some pictures to see the added items, including the Continental kit, =
fender flares and windshield visor.=C2=A0As for the starter, it was rebuilt=
by a local shop that is very reputable and have been around for over 30 ye=
ars.=C2=A0 They did my starter for my 71 VW Dune Buggy and 73 Mustang as we=
ll.I will be back under the dash and engine bay this weekend.Cheers!Eric & =
Christine RoellPS - We use my wife's maiden name on this email account.

On Monday, June 21, 2021, 03:07:51 p.m. EDT, Matt Colie wrote: =20
=20
Chris,=20

Welcome to the group, family, cult, asylum.....=20

First things first...=20
Do the electrical check out that Jon described. If that comes to nothing, t=
hen we need to look further.=C2=A0=20
A squeal, as you noted, is frequently a symptom of a started not dis-engagi=
ng when the engine has started.=C2=A0=20
It means that the solenoid did not pull the drive back from the ring gear.=
=C2=A0=20
- This can be a result of 2 things:=C2=A0 The crank signal was still presen=
t or the engagement system has failed.
If the start signal to the solenoid was locked on, the engine would have tr=
ied to start when the ignition switch was in the RUN position.=20
If it is the engagement system, then the starter needs help and the squeal =
was either the sprag clutch on the drive gear or the bearing in the started
screaming.=20

You say you had it rebuilt....=20
Was this a store front parts store rebuild exchange??=C2=A0 Or a real rebui=
lder?=C2=A0=20
If the former, take it back.=C2=A0 Someone that does not care made a mistak=
e.=20
If it is the later, still take it back and ask the guy what happened.=C2=
=A0=20
As said, if you check out the electrics and they are good, the rebuilder gu=
y will know what happened as soon as he has it on a bench.=20

Now the really important thing.=C2=A0 You found you way her and that is ver=
y good.=C2=A0 What you may not understand is that everybody here has a not =
so hidden
agenda.=C2=A0 That agenda is to see to it that you appreciate both the coac=
h itself and what it can do for you.=C2=A0 It is not quite a magic carpet, =
but it
will be close.=C2=A0 It is much more than a big new toy because it is your =
connection to this community of amazingly supportive and helping people.=
=C2=A0 We all
are eager to make your coach enjoyable.=C2=A0=20

To this end, please fill in a more complete sigfile.=C2=A0 I work the forum=
and don't know how to do this from the mailing list end.=C2=A0 You have a =
good
start, but if you were to include a geographic reference, that might be a h=
elp.=C2=A0 This community is so tight, that if you are having a problem tha=
t
someone in striking range knows how to handle, you might get hands on help.=
=C2=A0 I have been both sides of this.=C2=A0 It is comforting.=C2=A0=20

We have your name (we like to know who we are helping), and that it is a 76=
Glenbrook (Was Roell the restorer?) but please include any significant
mods or upgrades as they may make a difference.=C2=A0 Finally, if we know w=
here you are, we know your climate and someone may be close by.=C2=A0 Examp=
le, if you
were in striking range, I would come by with my spare starter.=C2=A0 A star=
ted is the only heavy spare I carry.=C2=A0=20

This community so reminds me of that of the waterment of my own world that =
I have taken to welcoming new owners that show here with a paraphrase of
the greeting you would get there as a new owner or with a new vessel. So,=
=20

May the Good Lord bless this coach and all those that set forth within her.=
=C2=A0=20

Welcome Eric and Christine

Matt=20
--=20
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumi=C3=A8re -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, =
GMCES=20
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes=
with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
 
Thank you John,Good to know about the firewall solenoid.  I will check the ignition switch and the Start power to the solenoid this weekend.  The starter rebuilder seems to think the solenoid is being energized even after the key is returned from start position.  
Eric Roell76 GlenbrookAurora, Ontario
On Monday, June 21, 2021, 10:51:56 p.m. EDT, John R. Lebetski wrote:

Just want to mention that the solenoid on the firewall has nothing to do with your problem. You might be thinking FORD but the solenoid on the
firewall is to parallel the batteries during BOOST. You could just have a bad run of rebuilt starters or it is not sitting right when installed. Hard
to say without hearing what is going on, but your timing could be too advanced or someone has patched manifold vacuum instead of ported to the
distributor.
--
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
 
> Thank you John,Good to know about the firewall solenoid.  I will check the ignition switch and the Start power to the solenoid this weekend. 
> The starter rebuilder seems to think the solenoid is being energized even after the key is returned from start position.  
> Eric Roell76 GlenbrookAurora, Ontario

Eric,

If the complex linkage that works the switch is worn out, that is quite possible. The parts that wear out are usually very available at any
store-front parts store. Many will lend the tools needed to pull the steering wheel and signal switch so you can replace the rack and pinion that do
this. It is not a difficult job with the right tools. Read about it before you start.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
 
Thanks Matt, that great input.I have the pullers for the steering wheel and have done the rack and pinion on some of my old Fords, so I have some background on it.  I will read up where ever I can find info.
On Tuesday, June 22, 2021, 02:18:32 p.m. EDT, Matt Colie wrote:


> Thank you John,Good to know about the firewall solenoid.  I will check the ignition switch and the Start power to the solenoid this weekend. 
> The starter rebuilder seems to think the solenoid is being energized even after the key is returned from start position.  
> Eric Roell76 GlenbrookAurora, Ontario

Eric,

If the complex linkage that works the switch is worn out, that is quite possible.  The parts that wear out are usually very available at any
store-front parts store.  Many will lend the tools needed to pull the steering wheel and signal switch so you can replace the rack and pinion that do
this.  It is not a difficult job with the right tools.  Read about it before you start.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
 
One other thing to consider is looking at the other end of the engine.

I had a similar problem with my pickup, starter wouldn't turn, but would try hard.
I eventually tracked it down to a seized alternator. Took off the belt and it turned over fine, but not before swapping batteries, boosting,
charging, and thinking my starter was fubar'ed.
--
Burl Vibert
Kingston, Ontario
1976 GMC 26 foot, Sheridan reno, don't know original model
 
One more thought on this.  There is a loud buzzing noise from the firewall, I assume this is the ignition on/not running buzzer, but I thought I should check just in case.
----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Chris McBride To: gmclist Sent: Monday, June 21, 2021, 09:39:18 a.m. EDTSubject: Second Starter Motor Burned out
Good Morning,We recently picked up a very nice 76 Glenbrook with 76,000 miles.  The TZE is is very nice shape, refurbished in 2009 and always stored indoors. Last week the starter quit, it would only make a loud click, but not rotate to the point it started to smoke.  I had it rebuilt, checked battery and cables but still burned out the rebuilt starter on the first start.  The rebuilt starter worked perfectly for the first start, but there was a loud squealing sound coming from the engine/drivetrain area.  I shut the motor off, had a quick look and was not able to start again.  Same loud click, but I did not push the rebuilt one to the point of getting the unit hot.  There is a possibility the start power is staying on and keeping the solenoid engaged.  I have not confirmed this, but it is likely the problem, possibly the ignition switched or the relay/solenoid on the firewall or ???I welcome and appreciate any feedback.Thank you,
Eric & Christine RoellAurora, Ontario
76 Glenbrook, Refurbed in 2009Fender flares, Continental Kit, Alcoas, macerator
 
Thank you Burl.  Everything seems to be fine, and could not find problem.  The tilt wheel mechanism is broken and I heard something drop down the steering column tube and suspect a piece may have temporarily jammed the switch in the "start" position.  I will be tackling that project next.Eric RoellAurora, Ontario1976 Glenbrook 26
On Tuesday, June 22, 2021, 05:16:38 p.m. EDT, Burl Vibert wrote:

One other thing to consider is looking at the other end of the engine.

I had a similar problem with my pickup, starter wouldn't turn, but would try hard.
I eventually tracked it down to a seized alternator.  Took off the belt and it turned over fine, but not before swapping batteries, boosting,
charging, and thinking my starter was fubar'ed.
--
Burl Vibert     
Kingston, Ontario   
1976 GMC 26 foot, Sheridan reno, don't know original model
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
 
Good Morning Jon.  The second starter is in and everything seems to be fine, but I could not find a problem with the switch or it's mechanical operation.  I did pull the purple wire to ensure I did not cook another starter motor.  I fired it up wiht the wire connected and then pulled it off as soon as the motor ran. The tilt wheel mechanism is broken and I heard something drop down the steering column tube and suspect a piece may have temporarily jammed the switch in the "start" position.  I will be tackling that project next.

On Monday, June 21, 2021, 10:33:23 a.m. EDT, Jon Roche wrote:

there is an ignition switch on the lower part of column.  kinda on the driver side between lower dash and floor(closer to dash) bolted to the column.
  a rod running down steering  activates it from the actual key tumbler.

you can check that switch or replace it easy and cheap enough....  there is a little adjustment to it.

then the wire is generally a heavier purple wire that goes through a "neutral safety" switch on the back at the very base of the steering column
almost to the floor. 

from there it usually goes into harness and over through the fuse panel(not fused there- just passes through), out the firewall at the fuse panel, 
into the harness that goes to the engine.    it exits that harness at the front passenger side, drops down the front corner of the engine where it
then runs back along oil lines to the starter and hits the starter there.

you can sometimes rig up a few feet of wire and a light bulb circuit  and wire in the hot side of that light off the small starter post it is hooked
up to,  to get a light into the drivers compartment where you can see it.  that will tell you if the starter is being energized. 

--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
 
Good Morning Matt.  The second starter is in and everything seems to be fine, but I could not find a problem with the switch or it's mechanical operation.  The tilt wheel mechanism is broken and I heard something drop down the steering column tube and suspect a piece may have temporarily jammed the switch in the "start" position.  I will be tackling that project next.

On Tuesday, June 22, 2021, 02:18:32 p.m. EDT, Matt Colie wrote:


> Thank you John,Good to know about the firewall solenoid.  I will check the ignition switch and the Start power to the solenoid this weekend. 
> The starter rebuilder seems to think the solenoid is being energized even after the key is returned from start position.  
> Eric Roell76 GlenbrookAurora, Ontario

Eric,

If the complex linkage that works the switch is worn out, that is quite possible.  The parts that wear out are usually very available at any
store-front parts store.  Many will lend the tools needed to pull the steering wheel and signal switch so you can replace the rack and pinion that do
this.  It is not a difficult job with the right tools.  Read about it before you start.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
 
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