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roger black

New member
Dec 2, 1998
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[ADMIN note - Roger, your posts are still coming in html encoded.
Please post in plain text only. Thanks - Patrick]

OK, for a newbie wanna be owner. Here's a question for all.
What are the 10 most important upgrades listed in order of importance?

No fights now.

Roger
7? ????
 
Hey Arch, No mention of those kids 4 & 7. Was that some time ago?
Mine are 32, 31, 8, and 6. Both kids have fallen lut of the top bunk in
the middle of the night. I am thinking of a cargo net for safety
between the straps. They both want to sleep up top.

Here's a puzzler. When I bought my coach 3 months ago it was diagnosed
by Ed Osburn as having a defective height sensor on the passenger
(right) side. Electro Level two. All works fine in hold, up and down.
Put it in auto and both sides come down immediately. Just replaced
hoses (1/4") the 1/8' hoses seem to have a factory end. Any information
on the 1/8" hoses No leaks, but still the problem with auto. Help!

Walter 78 Royale
 
Excellent way to coold down the engine Arch. Let me make sure that I get
this right, I might consider it. I have filled in some of the steps you may
have missed, between when you hit the water switch and spray the radiator
and the engine cooling off. The fan catches the water when it hits the
radiator sprays the engine and of course the distibuter and shorts
everything out and the coach stops. The whole thing cools off since it
can't run until you pop the cover and dry everything off. Is this about right?

>Roger
>
>I must say that none of us can answer that question for you. First
>we must determine your Fear level (pucker factor) and then your
>Dream level (smile factor). What do you think about when you drive?
>Do you listen to the stereo or the engine? Does a single miss fire
>on a 5000 mile trip cause you further hemorrhoid problems or do you
>dismiss it as a fly in the gas you bought? Have you installed
>a little mirror on each side so you can watch each front wheel
>bearing? Now you must also must understand that I have only
>driven me GMC about 50 miles. I am rebuilding my dream GMC.
>It cant be worse than my LeSharo. ( It has even turned me from
>a stereo listener to an engine listener)
>
>>From my perspective number one priority is to get all of the leaks
>stopped. Understand I bought mine at a junk yard. Just put in a
>door seal from gateway and it has stopped the floor from getting wet
>around the door. Will be sending Patrick pics of what I found out
>about wet cockpit floors in the morning.
>
>My next priority is I like to cook at campouts. Also I have no use for the
>couch. I therefore am going to extend the kitchen counter and put in
>a desk where the couch is. I have been offered several consulting
>jobs when I retire so this seems like an upgrade to me.
>
>With my back there is no way I could sleep on that thing they
>call a bed in the back of the coach. Took all of this out and I am
>putting in a nice flat piece of plywood. Add a good mattress and
>I will be able to sleep there. Now that is an upgrade.
>
>I would like to do some dry camping. I have only done one night in
>my present rig. But this sounds like fun. All alone on some nice little
>lake some where. I will put in a Smart charger 40 amp critter. I like
>the looks of what I see.
>
>I am also putting in a microwave and an inverter. Never thought I
>would need a microwave but now my mind has changed. It is
>fast and sometimes that is nice. (See cant even make up my own
>mind let alone yours)
>
>Since I like to cook and I also smoke there is no way I am going
>to add one of those soft fuzzy headliners to my coach. Not even
>carpet. I have put in a plastic headliner of the same material as
>the endcaps. NO the people who put in soft fuzzy headliners are
>not wrong. It just does not work for me-------and this is my coach
>just like the one you get will be yours.
>
>Now this pure silly. I have studied the door switch on the entrance door
>and I ask some questions in here and I came up with a plan. I have wired
>the door switch so when the door is opened it turns on 4 nice lights
>all over the front of the coach. Is this an upgrade-------heck I dont know
>but I love it. Oh yes I also wired in a switch so the lights do not come
>on when the door is opened. This is fun!!!
>
>Now here is a crazy idea for a crazy upgrade. I have installed
>a water line from the kitchen to the front of the coach. I am going to
>install a lawn sprinkler on the grill. If I am pulling a long hard grade and
>the old girl starts to overheat--------hit the switch and the radiator gets
>a shower from the water in my tank. Silly right ---------oh I dont know
>I love it.
>
>I want to operate my laptop on the desk that I am making so
>I have run a clean circuit up to just behind the drivers seat.
>I have also put a clean circuit to the cabinet in the bedroom.
>I will put a DC TV there.
>
>Roger Live you dreams not your fears. Yes, your fears will happen.
>Your dreams will only happen if you make them happen.
>
>Take Care
>Arch
>
>
Tom & Marg Warner
Vernon Center NY
1976 palmbeach
 
Top 10 eh. It depends if you consider getting the coach up and running
safely, an upgrade or not. Brakes, steering, drive train and all this
other somewhat insignificant stuff shouldn't be included as upgrades since
it's not really necessary anyway.
My top picks, not in any particular order would be:
Keep in mind I have three kids under 12.
-8 cubic foot two way fridge.
-split the combined grey/black holding tank to two separate
tanks
-get rid of the 500 lb. generator and replace with newer,
lighter model
-replace any roof vent with Fantastic fans and step down to 1
a/c
-screen door of some type
-auxiliary vents for engine cooling
-auxiliary electric fan for engine/radiator with toggle switch

-I'm still debating the change to electric wiper motor
conversion
There are other changes that I am doing on my coach but they are still in
the planning stages. The above upgrades have been left without long
explanations so as to generate some discussion. As Dave would say, "
Darren's bored again and needs something to do." Lets see where this
goes. Darren

> [ADMIN note - Roger, your posts are still coming in html encoded.
> Please post in plain text only. Thanks - Patrick]
>
> OK, for a newbie wanna be owner. Here's a question for all.
> What are the 10 most important upgrades listed in order of importance?
>
> No fights now.
>
> Roger
> 7? ????
 
Thanks Arch,
Will definitely be calling on you guys for help.

My main fear---Wife will want to drive it, with me in it. Scary stuff for
real. Other stuff can be fixed but not my fingernails embedding in the dash
or what ever is close at hand.

As for the noises, I don't hear anything. Depend on my dog for hearing,
really. Perfect marriage, wife screams, I don't hear it at all.

All of you have been a great help and I do appreciate it.

Roger
7? ????
 
Arch,
This sounds like a great idea. As for the water
shuting down the engine....I hope mine will run
through a rain storm...And Im sure I wont have to
worry about a gallon of water spraying on the engine.
Im also sure if Im pulling a hill My engine would
be plenty hot enough to dryout any water that
gets there. Heck, A little water in the carb would
help eliminate a pre-detonation problem in the
cylinders if ya got one. (:.)
Rob Teed 74 Painted Desert

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-gmcmotorhome
> [mailto:owner-gmcmotorhome]On Behalf Of Thomas G.
> Warner
> Sent: Saturday, December 05, 1998 1:06 PM
> To: gmcmotorhome
> Subject: Re: GMC: New Subject
>
>
> Excellent way to coold down the engine Arch. Let me make sure that I get
> this right, I might consider it. I have filled in some of the
> steps you may
> have missed, between when you hit the water switch and spray the radiator
> and the engine cooling off. The fan catches the water when it hits the
> radiator sprays the engine and of course the distibuter and shorts
> everything out and the coach stops. The whole thing cools off since it
> can't run until you pop the cover and dry everything off. Is
> this about right?
>
>
>

> >Roger
> >
> >I must say that none of us can answer that question for you. First
> >we must determine your Fear level (pucker factor) and then your
> >Dream level (smile factor). What do you think about when you drive?
> >Do you listen to the stereo or the engine? Does a single miss fire
> >on a 5000 mile trip cause you further hemorrhoid problems or do you
> >dismiss it as a fly in the gas you bought? Have you installed
> >a little mirror on each side so you can watch each front wheel
> >bearing? Now you must also must understand that I have only
> >driven me GMC about 50 miles. I am rebuilding my dream GMC.
> >It cant be worse than my LeSharo. ( It has even turned me from
> >a stereo listener to an engine listener)
> >
> >>From my perspective number one priority is to get all of the leaks
> >stopped. Understand I bought mine at a junk yard. Just put in a
> >door seal from gateway and it has stopped the floor from getting wet
> >around the door. Will be sending Patrick pics of what I found out
> >about wet cockpit floors in the morning.
> >
> >My next priority is I like to cook at campouts. Also I have no
> use for the
> >couch. I therefore am going to extend the kitchen counter and put in
> >a desk where the couch is. I have been offered several consulting
> >jobs when I retire so this seems like an upgrade to me.
> >
> >With my back there is no way I could sleep on that thing they
> >call a bed in the back of the coach. Took all of this out and I am
> >putting in a nice flat piece of plywood. Add a good mattress and
> >I will be able to sleep there. Now that is an upgrade.
> >
> >I would like to do some dry camping. I have only done one night in
> >my present rig. But this sounds like fun. All alone on some nice little
> >lake some where. I will put in a Smart charger 40 amp critter. I like
> >the looks of what I see.
> >
> >I am also putting in a microwave and an inverter. Never thought I
> >would need a microwave but now my mind has changed. It is
> >fast and sometimes that is nice. (See cant even make up my own
> >mind let alone yours)
> >
> >Since I like to cook and I also smoke there is no way I am going
> >to add one of those soft fuzzy headliners to my coach. Not even
> >carpet. I have put in a plastic headliner of the same material as
> >the endcaps. NO the people who put in soft fuzzy headliners are
> >not wrong. It just does not work for me-------and this is my coach
> >just like the one you get will be yours.
> >
> >Now this pure silly. I have studied the door switch on the entrance door
> >and I ask some questions in here and I came up with a plan. I have wired
> >the door switch so when the door is opened it turns on 4 nice lights
> >all over the front of the coach. Is this an upgrade-------heck I
> dont know
> >but I love it. Oh yes I also wired in a switch so the lights do not come
> >on when the door is opened. This is fun!!!
> >
> >Now here is a crazy idea for a crazy upgrade. I have installed
> >a water line from the kitchen to the front of the coach. I am going to
> >install a lawn sprinkler on the grill. If I am pulling a long
> hard grade and
> >the old girl starts to overheat--------hit the switch and the
> radiator gets
> >a shower from the water in my tank. Silly right ---------oh I dont know
> >I love it.
> >
> >I want to operate my laptop on the desk that I am making so
> >I have run a clean circuit up to just behind the drivers seat.
> >I have also put a clean circuit to the cabinet in the bedroom.
> >I will put a DC TV there.
> >
> >Roger Live you dreams not your fears. Yes, your fears will happen.
> >Your dreams will only happen if you make them happen.
> >
> >Take Care
> >Arch
> >
> >
> Tom & Marg Warner
> Vernon Center NY
> 1976 palmbeach
>
>
 
Arch - not to worry - I frequently wash my toad (89 Jeep Wrangler) engine at
the high pressure car wash. I do it with the engine warm/hot and running,
and never cover the electrical system. (Not recommended for engines with
electronics)

I have done this on every older vehicle I have owned, and have never had any
problems (condensation, cracked manifolds, shorted alternator, etc.)

And I've driven through torrential downpours that certainly precipitated
more moisture than your going to apply.

Go for it!

Chuck
77K

- -----Original Message-----
From: Voyager
To: gmcmotorhome
Date: Saturday, December 05, 1998 3:29 PM
Subject: RE: GMC: New Subject

>Arch,
> This sounds like a great idea. As for the water
> shuting down the engine....I hope mine will run
> through a rain storm...And Im sure I wont have to
> worry about a gallon of water spraying on the engine.
> Im also sure if Im pulling a hill My engine would
> be plenty hot enough to dryout any water that
> gets there. Heck, A little water in the carb would
> help eliminate a pre-detonation problem in the
> cylinders if ya got one. (:.)
>Rob Teed 74 Painted Desert
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-gmcmotorhome
>> [mailto:owner-gmcmotorhome]On Behalf Of Thomas G.
>> Warner
>> Sent: Saturday, December 05, 1998 1:06 PM
>> To: gmcmotorhome
>> Subject: Re: GMC: New Subject
>>
>>
>> Excellent way to coold down the engine Arch. Let me make sure that I get
>> this right, I might consider it. I have filled in some of the
>> steps you may
>> have missed, between when you hit the water switch and spray the radiator
>> and the engine cooling off. The fan catches the water when it hits the
>> radiator sprays the engine and of course the distibuter and shorts
>> everything out and the coach stops. The whole thing cools off since it
>> can't run until you pop the cover and dry everything off. Is
>> this about right?
>>
 
Tom,

That's pretty funny :)! Now the GMC can't even be driven in the rain :)!!
I think that as long as Arch keeps the water to a reasonable amount and
mists it on the front of the radiator, that it should evaporate on the hot
radiator before it gets to the engine. The evaporation is where the big
cooling effects would come into play. There have been some companies that
sold systems like this in the FMCA magazine (though most were intended for
rear engine motorhomes which would not have
to worry about the problem you suggest). Another potential problem might
be deposits left by the water. Water can have a lot of minerals in it
which would be deposited on evaporation. The deposits might keep both the
water and the air from having direct contact with the metal which would
reduce the cooling. It probably would not be a real problem, but it is
something to consider.

Zak

>Excellent way to coold down the engine Arch. Let me make sure that I get
>this right, I might consider it. I have filled in some of the steps you may
>have missed, between when you hit the water switch and spray the radiator
>and the engine cooling off. The fan catches the water when it hits the
>radiator sprays the engine and of course the distibuter and shorts
>everything out and the coach stops. The whole thing cools off since it
>can't run until you pop the cover and dry everything off. Is this about
right?

>Tom & Marg Warner
>Vernon Center NY
>1976 palmbeach
>
>
 
Arch,

While it is true that you can run more timing in higher humidity, it is
also true that the motor is going to make less power. If you do not take
advantage of the ability to increase the timing, the power loss is even
greater. The water in the air displaces oxygen, so there is actually less
oxygen to burn. We always have to run a set index (8.900 seconds and 9.900
seconds). We usually don't mess with our timing on our cars, but we do
have timed throttle stops on them which basically close the throttle about
.5 seconds into the run and then open it back up at about 2.5 seconds into
the run. We need to shorten the time of "closed" throttle when the
humidity becomes higher even if the other factors stay the same because we
will run slow if we don't.

We ran a duct out to the front of the GMC with one of Ragusa's aluminum
scoops for fresh air for our engine. With our fuel injection system, we
can monitor intake air temperature. Without the fresh air duct, the intake
air temp would rise significantly (>=130 degrees). With the fresh air
duct, the intake temp only rises slightly above the outside temp. This is
quite significant and also allowed us to run MUCH more timing because
detonation is less likely if the air is cooler. The knock sensor was
pulling the timing all the way back to 10 degrees (as far as it can go)
under any load without the duct, but we can run more than 20 under most
loads (as low as 14 under very heavy load) with the duct. Having the duct
out in front also can add somewhat of a ram air, but that improvement is
not nearly as significant as the cooler air it provides.

Zak

>Zak I have not raced in a long time but we used to have
>a chart taped inside the tool box that told us how far we could advance
>the timing according to how much humidity was in the air. We checked
>the humidity and set the timing accordingly. If the humidity was high
>then we could push the timing up. If the radiator vaporizes the water
>then the humidity goes up in the engine compartment. A lot less
>knock.
>Take Care
>Arch 76 GB IL
 
Any one have a spare, old, used, earmarked last issue of GMC Market Place
Magazine? I called but they won't be able to send one until the Jan issue.
Will return it if you want to keep it. Seems as though I will fit this
group as it doesn't seem like anyone throws anything away. I need a GMC
now! Not January or later.

Thanks,
Roger
7? ????
 
It was only a tongue in cheek remark! I am fully aware of the former
benefits of water spray cooling. Point is we have progressed beyond that.
The GMC had a special radiator that was designed to prevent just such
problems. If you have to add a water mist system than something else is
wrong. Wrong water pump, wrong or deficient radiator, bad hoses, bad tranny
etc. If the radiator system is functioning properly it will never overheat.

First thing I will have done is have a new heavy duty core put in mine.

>Tom,
>
> That's pretty funny :)! Now the GMC can't even be driven in the rain :)!!
> I think that as long as Arch keeps the water to a reasonable amount and
>mists it on the front of the radiator, that it should evaporate on the hot
>radiator before it gets to the engine. The evaporation is where the big
>cooling effects would come into play. There have been some companies that
>sold systems like this in the FMCA magazine (though most were intended for
>rear engine motorhomes which would not have
>to worry about the problem you suggest). Another potential problem might
>be deposits left by the water. Water can have a lot of minerals in it
>which would be deposited on evaporation. The deposits might keep both the
>water and the air from having direct contact with the metal which would
>reduce the cooling. It probably would not be a real problem, but it is
>something to consider.
>
>Zak
>
>

>>Excellent way to coold down the engine Arch. Let me make sure that I get
>>this right, I might consider it. I have filled in some of the steps you may
>>have missed, between when you hit the water switch and spray the radiator
>>and the engine cooling off. The fan catches the water when it hits the
>>radiator sprays the engine and of course the distibuter and shorts
>>everything out and the coach stops. The whole thing cools off since it
>>can't run until you pop the cover and dry everything off. Is this about
>right?
>
>>Tom & Marg Warner
>>Vernon Center NY
>>1976 palmbeach
>>
>>
>
>
Tom & Marg Warner
Vernon Center NY
1976 palmbeach
 
Tom,

We have a new core in our radiator, have added a shroud to the grill to
force the air through the radiator, have installed the Winderfeldt water
pump, have installed the heavy duty fan clutch from Wes, and have even
tried running a second radiator for a while. The biggest factor in our GMC
always seems to be the fan clutch. As long as the fan comes on, the motor
cools right down. It usually does not come on, however, until the motor is
over 205 degrees or more. I guess they use that to give some hysteresis to
the system so the fan doesn't keep turning on and off when the temp is near
the 195 thermostat temp. The fan also takes a rather large amount of HP to
turn. We once had the fan clutch lock up and it cost us about 2 MPG
because the fan was always turning. If Arch can keep the engine closer to
195 all the time, and keep the fan from coming on as much, he would
probably be doing a good thing by adding the mister. It might keep the
motor in a smaller operating temperature range, and it also should improve
performance and mileage if he can keep the fan from turning on as much. He
will also be lightening his load by using up some of his water which should
help some :)!.

Just some thoughts,
Zak

>It was only a tongue in cheek remark! I am fully aware of the former
>benefits of water spray cooling. Point is we have progressed beyond that.
>The GMC had a special radiator that was designed to prevent just such
>problems. If you have to add a water mist system than something else is
>wrong. Wrong water pump, wrong or deficient radiator, bad hoses, bad tranny
>etc. If the radiator system is functioning properly it will never overheat.
>
>First thing I will have done is have a new heavy duty core put in mine.
>Tom & Marg Warner
>Vernon Center NY
>1976 palmbeach
>
>
 
Zak most cooling fans are designed to come on at about 205-210 degrees.
Thats fine. I have a 1987 corvette and it has electric fans that come on at
205. I am thinking of converting to dual electric fans, and removing the
present one. They come with a variable temp setting as well as a manual
override. I think they would be excellent used in conjunction with the side
vents. Could have a series of switches so that when stopped the fans would
go on and shut off when the under hood temp got to some predetermined temp.

>Tom,
>
>We have a new core in our radiator, have added a shroud to the grill to
>force the air through the radiator, have installed the Winderfeldt water
>pump, have installed the heavy duty fan clutch from Wes, and have even
>tried running a second radiator for a while. The biggest factor in our GMC
>always seems to be the fan clutch. As long as the fan comes on, the motor
>cools right down. It usually does not come on, however, until the motor is
>over 205 degrees or more. I guess they use that to give some hysteresis to
>the system so the fan doesn't keep turning on and off when the temp is near
>the 195 thermostat temp. The fan also takes a rather large amount of HP to
>turn. We once had the fan clutch lock up and it cost us about 2 MPG
>because the fan was always turning. If Arch can keep the engine closer to
>195 all the time, and keep the fan from coming on as much, he would
>probably be doing a good thing by adding the mister. It might keep the
>motor in a smaller operating temperature range, and it also should improve
>performance and mileage if he can keep the fan from turning on as much. He
>will also be lightening his load by using up some of his water which should
>help some :)!.
>
>Just some thoughts,
> Zak
>
>
>

>>It was only a tongue in cheek remark! I am fully aware of the former
>>benefits of water spray cooling. Point is we have progressed beyond that.
>>The GMC had a special radiator that was designed to prevent just such
>>problems. If you have to add a water mist system than something else is
>>wrong. Wrong water pump, wrong or deficient radiator, bad hoses, bad tranny
>>etc. If the radiator system is functioning properly it will never overheat.
>>
>>First thing I will have done is have a new heavy duty core put in mine.
>>Tom & Marg Warner
>>Vernon Center NY
>>1976 palmbeach
>>
>>
>
>
Tom & Marg Warner
Vernon Center NY
1976 palmbeach
 
Zac,

Did the addition of electric fans on the radiator and elimination of the one
on the water pump increase your miles per gallon?

Roger
 
Roger,

We do not use electric fans on our GMC. There is no way that any number of
electric fans could ever come close to pulling the amount of air that the
engine fan pulls. If they did, they would draw some serious amps. The
engine fan is huge! We would consider putting pushers on the front of the
radiator to give some control and help out, but I don't think it would be
wise to replace the engine driven fan.

Zak

>Zac,
>
>Did the addition of electric fans on the radiator and elimination of the one
>on the water pump increase your miles per gallon?
>
>Roger
>
>
 
I met one of our GMC's at a rally and he explained he had put a separate pump next to
the existing water pump for the coach and added a line that runs of the water supply,
through the pump and to the front of the radiator. When he needs it, he turns on the
pump and sprays water on the radiator. Says it works great. Havent tried it yet,
but he was sure convinced. As I do live in a dry, hot environment would like other
opinions
Al Chernoff

> Zak
>
> THANKS! I do not plan on putting a 4 inch fire hose up there. It is only
> a 3/8 inch line going to the engine compartment. I am planning on using
> one of the micro-mister heads to spray a very fine mist. Now you can buy
> this same system for $249 from the Mags we all read. They supply a new
> pump and the lawn sprinkler heads plus some tubing you can buy at Lowes.
> Why not use the pump we have and maybe $ 10 worth of new parts to do
> the same thing. Now if I need this system the radiator is going to be well
> over 212 degrees so that any water that hits it as a fine mist is going to
> be changed vapor. No, I will not explode my exhaust manifolds as suggested
> by one backdoor message. Zak is right you could not drive in the rain
> if this were true. Zak I have not raced in a long time but we used to have
> a chart taped inside the tool box that told us how far we could advance
> the timing according to how much humidity was in the air. We checked
> the humidity and set the timing accordingly. If the humidity was high
> then we could push the timing up. If the radiator vaporizes the water
> then the humidity goes up in the engine compartment. A lot less
> knock.
>
> As to deposits. Yes, they might be a problem. I dont expect to run
> this system 24-7. It was only thought of as a problem solver for extreme
> situations. I will go to Walmart and get some CLR if I am in the boonies
> I will spray it with vinegar and wash it off after 5 Min. Yes, vinegar will
> pit the fins on then radiator------it will dissipate more heat because
> of it.
>
> Take Care
> Arch 76 GB IL
>
> >
> > That's pretty funny :)! Now the GMC can't even be driven in the rain :)!!
> > I think that as long as Arch keeps the water to a reasonable amount and
> > mists it on the front of the radiator, that it should evaporate on the hot
> > radiator before it gets to the engine. The evaporation is where the big
> > cooling effects would come into play. There have been some companies that
> > sold systems like this in the FMCA magazine (though most were intended for
> > rear engine motorhomes which would not have
> > to worry about the problem you suggest). Another potential problem might
> > be deposits left by the water. Water can have a lot of minerals in it
> > which would be deposited on evaporation. The deposits might keep both the
> > water and the air from having direct contact with the metal which would
> > reduce the cooling. It probably would not be a real problem, but it is
> > something to consider.
> >
> > Zak
> >
 
Roger, are you still looking? How much work do you want to do? Darren

> Any one have a spare, old, used, earmarked last issue of GMC Market Place
> Magazine? I called but they won't be able to send one until the Jan issue.
> Will return it if you want to keep it. Seems as though I will fit this
> group as it doesn't seem like anyone throws anything away. I need a GMC
> now! Not January or later.
>
> Thanks,
> Roger
> 7? ????
 
> Zak
>
> Come on please I am talking about a 49 Ford flat head V8.

I have always had a dream of lifting up a GMC motorhome engine cover and seeing a
moldy old 8BA Ford Flathead V8 down there. You see I have a 51 Ford Victoria and
Woodie and a whole garage full of flathead motors and parts. If I could find a
front wheel drive Ford setup I would be tempted just for laughs. It would have to
be one built flathead though with an ocean on board for a cooling system.

Phil Swanson
 
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