Legalities of change to 80 mm calipers

[patrick flowers]

>
> I am in the process of installing my 80 mm calipers and hoses that I purchased
> from Autozone this last weekend.
>
> I was talking to Wes Coughlin at Cinnabar about another topic and mentioned
> the 80 mm calipers. He indicated that we could have a tremendous liability if
> the brakes failed and there was an accident. Apparently, modifications to a
> vehicle can create a situation where the vehicle no longer meets DOT (Dept of
> Transportation) standards for the vehicle.
>
> I am not a lawyer

Hmm... Neither is Wes. Neither am I for that matter, but I've got 20
years in the insurance industry.

> Do any of you have thoughts to share on this?

Well, based on this definition of liability, you'd have the same
exposure by doing your own maintenance. If you're in an accident, and
it's your fault, then you're liable, period. That's why you carry
insurance. Having modified your vehicle, either by replacing brake
calipers, brake shoes, wheels, tires... (you, get the idea) is unlikely
to increase your liability.

Like you, I didn't let Wes' opinion stop me from improving my coaches
brake system. But then, like I said, I'm no lawyer so don't confuse the
above with legal advice(don't want to be accused of practicing law
without a license).

Patrick
- --
Patrick Flowers
Mailtoatri63

The GMC Motorhome Page
http://www.gmcmotorhome.com

 

[john wright]

Wes has a tendancy to disapprove of anything that was not on the
original design and that he didn't design himself and sell from his
operation. The DOT answer is Wes answer to anything that someone else
designs and builds. Don't get me wrong, Wes is a good engineering, but
he sometime is too conserative in his opionions and that is my opinion.

J.R. Wright

>

> >
> > I am in the process of installing my 80 mm calipers and hoses that I purchased
> > from Autozone this last weekend.
> >
> > I was talking to Wes Coughlin at Cinnabar about another topic and mentioned
> > the 80 mm calipers. He indicated that we could have a tremendous liability if
> > the brakes failed and there was an accident. Apparently, modifications to a
> > vehicle can create a situation where the vehicle no longer meets DOT (Dept of
> > Transportation) standards for the vehicle.
> >
> > I am not a lawyer
>
> Hmm... Neither is Wes. Neither am I for that matter, but I've got 20
> years in the insurance industry.
>
> > Do any of you have thoughts to share on this?
>
> Well, based on this definition of liability, you'd have the same
> exposure by doing your own maintenance. If you're in an accident, and
> it's your fault, then you're liable, period. That's why you carry
> insurance. Having modified your vehicle, either by replacing brake
> calipers, brake shoes, wheels, tires... (you, get the idea) is unlikely
> to increase your liability.
>
> Like you, I didn't let Wes' opinion stop me from improving my coaches
> brake system. But then, like I said, I'm no lawyer so don't confuse the
> above with legal advice(don't want to be accused of practicing law
> without a license).
>
> Patrick
> --
> Patrick Flowers
> Mailtoatri63
>
> The GMC Motorhome Page
> http://www.gmcmotorhome.com

 

[hdavis]

>Wes has a tendancy to disapprove of anything that was not on the
>original design and that he didn't design himself and sell from his
>operation. The DOT answer is Wes answer to anything that someone else
>designs and builds. Don't get me wrong, Wes is a good engineering, but
>he sometime is too conserative in his opionions and that is my opinion.

Do keep in mind that as the GM licensee Cinnabar has special obligations
that other folks may not. You would get the same answer from any dealer or
other factory licensed operation if they expected to keep their license.

One quick example (and I have others): when it was time to replace tires on
a Rover, the original designation tire was not available. I inquired about
215s vs the 205s - Land Rover said "we can't comment on any tire other than
that originally specified by LR." The tire company said "we can't guarantee
the larger tires in that application since LR says it's a non-acceptable
alternative." LR changed the tire size the next year. But, to keep
warrantee etc I had to stick with a special order tire.

Henry
Henry Davis Consulting, Inc / new product consulting
PO Box 1270 / product readiness reviews
Soquel, Ca 95073 / IP reviews
ph: (408) 462-5199 / full service marketing
fax: (408) 462-5198
http://www.henry-davis.com/ http://www.henry-davis.com

 

[john dolan]

> The DOT answer is Wes answer to anything that someone else
> designs and builds.

Hey Folks, lets not go overboard on this subject. First of all the above
is a compound declarative statement. I have read very positive
endorsements of products by Wes, that he he does not design build or even
distribute. On the other hand, I think most everyone would agree with
his assesment of offset dualee wheels on the front and their dramatic
increase on bearing loads, which were avidly recommended on this
reflector by a few passing posters as solutions to wiggling which I might
add, have never been heard from since....

- --
Regards,
John 74 Glacier near Washington, DC.

 

[zachary zehnacker]

John,

I do not remember seeing any recent (last several years anyway) positive
reviews/articles written by Wes that were about items that he doesn't sell
(I am assuming he now sells the Statpower 40+, but I don't know for sure).
Do you have any examples? They would really help to change the way I
currently see things. I'm running out of the grains of salt that I
currently need to take things with .

This is how I currently see the situation. I have seen many glowing
reviews of stuff he sells. I have seen many very nasty reviews of stuff
other people sell (ex: shocks). It could just be that Cinnabar only sells
the best products, but I don't know. I am forced to wonder a little why
some "upgrades" like shocks/Alcoa wheels/etc don't seem to cause DOT
liability or GM licensing problems. It seems to me that these "upgrades"
could all have the capability to have just as much an affect on safety and
GM as the upgraded brakes/other Alcoa wheels/4-bag system/etc.

Since nobody has mentioned the different wheels in a while, I will say
something about them . I don't know if everyone agrees that the offset
wheels on the front are as big a problem as they are made out to be. From
different reports, there are people that are using these wheels. I have
not heard of any failure reports. In the case of this modification, I
would think that any failure reports would be spread very rapidly
throughout the GMC community. Since, as far as I can tell, none have been
reported here, in GMCMM, in the GMCMI newsletter, or even in the Cinnabar
newsletter, I have to assume that there haven't been any failures. Just
because one aspect of the loading might be increased by the different
offset doesn't necessarily mean that the bearings can't handle it. If that
loading aspect was the least likely to cause failure, it could still have a
better safety factor than some other more critical loading aspect. I'm not
saying that this is the case, but it very well may be. Does anyone on the
list have any experience or personally know someone who has experience with
the different offset wheels? I figure that quite a bit of time has
elapsed, so the people trying them out should have a pretty good idea of
how good/bad the idea is. I'd be interested in any new developments.

Don't get me wrong. Without Cinnabar, IMO, we would all be in bad shape.
They are the only supplier of MANY of the GMC parts. If they were not
around, there would be many items that would not be available for us.
They, as do many of the other GMC suppliers, play a special role in keeping
GMCs on the road and in top condition. It is very nice to be able to look
in the parts/service manuals (all now available thanks to Cinnabar) and be
able to pick up the phone and get the exact part you need. It often isn't
even that easy for common automobiles. IMO, we are very lucky that it is
that easy for our GMCs. Wes and Cinnabar have played major roles in making
it that easy.

Zak

>> The DOT answer is Wes answer to anything that someone else
>> designs and builds.
>
>Hey Folks, lets not go overboard on this subject. First of all the above
>is a compound declarative statement. I have read very positive
>endorsements of products by Wes, that he he does not design build or even
>distribute. On the other hand, I think most everyone would agree with
>his assesment of offset dualee wheels on the front and their dramatic
>increase on bearing loads, which were avidly recommended on this
>reflector by a few passing posters as solutions to wiggling which I might
>add, have never been heard from since....
>
>--
>Regards,
>John 74 Glacier near Washington, DC.
>

 

[bartz paul]

Zak:

I'm aware of one individual who I'm told has around 80,000 miles running the
wide offset front wheels.

Last summer he did experience a serious failure. However, it may have been
of his making. The individual who helped him repair the damage, which
included a broken drive shaft (he thinks because of excessive heat
build-up), told me that the owner pumped about 15 shots of regular grease
into his zerk equipped knuckle. That apparently blew out the grease seal
and allowed the grease to leak out, leading to the failure.

After being repaired, the offset wheel were put back on.

Paul Bartz

From: Zachary Zehnacker [mailto:zakz]
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 12:43 AM
Subject: Re: GMC: Legalities of change to 80 mm calipers

John,
I do not remember seeing any recent (last several years anyway) positive
reviews/articles written by Wes that were about items that he doesn't sell
(I am assuming he now sells the Statpower 40+, but I don't know for sure).
Do you have any examples? They would really help to change the way I
currently see things. I'm running out of the grains of salt that I
currently need to take things with .
This is how I currently see the situation. I have seen many glowing reviews
of stuff he sells. I have seen many very nasty reviews of stuff other
people sell (ex: shocks). It could just be that Cinnabar only sells the
best products, but I don't know. I am forced to wonder a little why some
"upgrades" like shocks/Alcoa wheels/etc don't seem to cause DOT liability or
GM licensing problems. It seems to me that these "upgrades" could all have
the capability to have just as much an affect on safety and GM as the
upgraded brakes/other Alcoa wheels/4-bag system/etc.
Since nobody has mentioned the different wheels in a while, I will say
something about them . I don't know if everyone agrees that the offset
wheels on the front are as big a problem as they are made out to be. From
different reports, there are people that are using these wheels. I have not
heard of any failure reports. In the case of this modification, I would
think that any failure reports would be spread very rapidly throughout the
GMC community. Since, as far as I can tell, none have been reported here,
in GMCMM, in the GMCMI newsletter, or even in the Cinnabar newsletter, I
have to assume that there haven't been any failures. Just because one
aspect of the loading might be increased by the different offset doesn't
necessarily mean that the bearings can't handle it. If that loading aspect
was the least likely to cause failure, it could still have a better safety
factor than some other more critical loading aspect. I'm not saying that
this is the case, but it very well may be. Does anyone on the list have any
experience or personally know someone who has experience with the different
offset wheels? I figure that quite a bit of time has elapsed, so the people
trying them out should have a pretty good idea of how good/bad the idea is.
I'd be interested in any new developments.
Don't get me wrong. Without Cinnabar, IMO, we would all be in bad shape.
They are the only supplier of MANY of the GMC parts. If they were not
around, there would be many items that would not be available for us. They,
as do many of the other GMC suppliers, play a special role in keeping GMCs
on the road and in top condition. It is very nice to be able to look in the
parts/service manuals (all now available thanks to Cinnabar) and be able to
pick up the phone and get the exact part you need. It often isn't even that
easy for common automobiles. IMO, we are very lucky that it is that easy
for our GMCs. Wes and Cinnabar have played major roles in making it that
easy.

The DOT answer is Wes answer to anything that someone else designs and
builds.
Hey Folks, lets not go overboard on this subject. First of all the above is
a compound declarative statement. I have read very positive endorsements of
products by Wes, that he he does not design build or even distribute. On
the other hand, I think most everyone would agree with his assessment of
offset dualee wheels on the front and their dramatic increase on bearing
loads, which were avidly recommended on this reflector by a few passing
posters as solutions to wiggling which I might add, have never been heard
from since....
John 74 Glacier near Washington, DC.

 

[john dolan]

Zak...

I was just suggesting the absence of balance here on the subject of Wes.
A lot of folks keep saying that is just his opinion on this or that, when
I responded with my suggestion for balance, highlighted below:

> The DOT answer is Wes answer to anything that someone else
> designs and builds.

>> Hey Folks, lets not go overboard on this subject. First of all the
>> above is a compound declarative statement. I have read very positive
>> endorsements of products by Wes, that he he does not design, build or
>> even distribute.

Many and maybe even most of the items in his newsletter (I just scanned
the headlines on the last 17 issues since Sept 94 - that gray column on
the first page) are not made or designed by GM or Wes. Other items like
the manometer someone mentioned, or the air bag emergency replacement
made out of threaded rods and bolts, or the Moen faucet repair are things
you can make yourself, or buy locally. Scanning those headlines, Zak may
provide you with that list of stuff that he doesn't sell. (just noticed
the index on page 12 of the June 98 issue and that may help also)

With regard to the front bearing issue, the wealth of GM engineering
history, first hand (his oun and his customers) failure analysis, and
his engineering perspective, are assets that I would sorely miss without
Wes's newsletter. Someone somewhere calculated the increase in load due
to the 7 inch offset in the dualie wheel to exceed the design specs by
500% or some such magnitude.

That is enough for me to steer clear of that idea. It sounds like you
may not have the same aversion. If you decide to try it, watch out for
potholes... loosing a front wheel at speed on an GMC may be worse than on
a racing car.

- --
Regards,
John 74 Glacier near Washington, DC.