Fuel Injection

travis martin

New member
Jan 18, 1999
267
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Although I feel port injection is the
> ultimate, the biggest draw back to me is justifying the cost vs. TBI and
its
> benefits

I've given this a little thought myself. 'Way back 25 or so years ago when I
first began seriously studying and restoring Corvettes, I was fascinated by
the Rochester RamJet fuel injection system that first appeared on the '57
Corvette and was available through the early '65 models. I well recall
reading interviews with Zora Arkus-Duntov, one of the developers of this
system and widely regarded as the "father of the Corvette." He stated that
their research indicated that a timed, port injected system had the
advantage of slightly better fuel economy, but that the constant flow
system, which the Rochester was, yielded slightly better performance. As I
recall, Mercedes was working on a mechanical timed system which saw
production, but I know nothing about it. The Rochester system, with which I
am very familiar, is a marvel of design; it is quite simply a mechanical
analog computer. It was extremely efficient and quite reliable if left
alone; unfortunately, hordes of tinkerers decided it was junk, so they
didn't have the reputation they deserved. Probably some parallels in the GMC
world.

Of course nowdays digital electronics has changed everything. What used to
be very hard to do with any precision is insanely easy...everything from
adding machines and typewriters to alarm clocks have benefitted or been
replaced. Fuel injection is no exception. But I wonder if the same
principles--that is, timed port versus constant flow--have changed? TBI
(Throttle Body Injection) is very easy to implement, since it is essentially
a replacement for the carburetor. Chevrolet even used an adaptor plate to
mate the two-barrel throttle body to the Quadrajet intake on the late 80's
454; this is readily available and would make it easy to put TBI on a GMC.
But there are also companies doing some pretty elegant retrofitting by
drilling the ports and installing mounting bosses for port injection.

I would like to see someone make a stab at researching this and reporting
the findings; frankly, it is completely out of my league time- and
money-wise these days. I would refer you to www.tpis.com and to
www.fuelinjection.com as both are very much into this. Fuelinjection.com has
several pages of interesting explanations of the components and
terminology...good reading for everyone.

Best regards,

Travis in Lubbock, Texas
 
Travis:

I'm uncertain what it is you're suggesting needs to be researched??

If it's port injection, there are already two individuals producing kits for
the GMC. However, I know one hasn't developed anything for the 403 cid
engine and I'm uncertain about the other one doing so either.

Paul Bartz

From: Travis Martin [mailto:travism]
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 1999 12:44 PM

Although I feel port injection is the ultimate, the biggest draw back to me
is justifying the cost vs. TBI and its benefits

I've given this a little thought myself. 'Way back 25 or so years ago when I
first began seriously studying and restoring Corvettes, I was fascinated by
the Rochester RamJet fuel injection system that first appeared on the '57
Corvette and was available through the early '65 models. I well recall
reading interviews with Zora Arkus-Duntov, one of the developers of this
system and widely regarded as the "father of the Corvette." He stated that
their research indicated that a timed, port injected system had the
advantage of slightly better fuel economy, but that the constant flow
system, which the Rochester was, yielded slightly better performance. As I
recall, Mercedes was working on a mechanical timed system which saw
production, but I know nothing about it. The Rochester system, with which I
am very familiar, is a marvel of design; it is quite simply a mechanical
analog computer. It was extremely efficient and quite reliable if left
alone; unfortunately, hordes of tinkerers decided it was junk, so they
didn't have the reputation they deserved. Probably some parallels in the GMC
world.
Of course nowdays digital electronics has changed everything. What used to
be very hard to do with any precision is insanely easy...everything from
adding machines and typewriters to alarm clocks have benefitted or been
replaced. Fuel injection is no exception. But I wonder if the same
principles-that is, timed port versus constant flow-have changed? TBI
(Throttle Body Injection) is very easy to implement, since it is essentially
a replacement for the carburetor. Chevrolet even used an adaptor plate to
mate the two-barrel throttle body to the Quadrajet intake on the late 80's
454; this is readily available and would make it easy to put TBI on a GMC.
But there are also companies doing some pretty elegant retrofitting by
drilling the ports and installing mounting bosses for port injection.
I would like to see someone make a stab at researching this and reporting
the findings; frankly, it is completely out of my league time- and
money-wise these days. I would refer you to www.tpis.com
http://www.tpis.com and to www.fuelinjection.com
http://www.fuelinjection.com as both are very much into this.
Fuelinjection.com has several pages of interesting explanations of the
components and terminology...good reading for everyone.
 
> If it's port injection, there are already two individuals producing kits
for
> the GMC. However, I know one hasn't developed anything for the 403 cid
> engine and I'm uncertain about the other one doing so either.
>
> Paul Bartz

Paul, I was not aware that anyone was working on this or that kits existed.
Can you supply some details or url's?

Thanks,

Travis
 
Travis:

Rance Baxter's site is: http://www.rancefi.com.

The other is Leigh Harrison, 703-494-9914. If you're near Tyler TX, Jean
Henderson there has one of Leigh's units.

Paul Bartz

From: Travis Martin [mailto:travism]
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 1999 1:27 PM

> If it's port injection, there are already two individuals producing kits
for
> the GMC. However, I know one hasn't developed anything for the 403 cid
> engine and I'm uncertain about the other one doing so either.
>
> Paul Bartz

Paul, I was not aware that anyone was working on this or that kits existed.
Can you supply some details or url's?
 
Paul,

Did you look into the Holly or Accel systems or are you only considering
those systems purpose-built for the GMC?

Thanks!
Patrick

>
> Based on my research, I've been looking at and gathering info
> on the Howell and Turbo City systems.
 
Patrick:

Travis only asked about the two port injection systems I said were already
in existence, so that's all I responded to.

Paul Bartz

From: Patrick.Flowers
[mailto:Patrick.Flowers]
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 1999 1:45 PM

There's some pictures I made of Leigh's system at the Marion GMCMI rally
last year at:

http://www.gmcmotorhome.com/marion/index.html

about half-way down the page.

Paul, can't believe your forgot:

http://www.turbocity.com/EFIApplMotorHomes.htm

Patrick

>
> Travis:
>
> Rance Baxter's site is: http://www.rancefi.com.
>
> The other is Leigh Harrison, 703-494-9914. If you're near
> Tyler TX, Jean
> Henderson there has one of Leigh's units.
 
Patrick:

Only those purpose-built and more importantly to me, those that other owners
already have proven, positive experience with.

>From my discussions with Leigh Harrison on his work on fine tuning his port
system and the troubles I'm aware of that owners have experienced with some
of the TBI systems, I don't want to get into a system that requires
tinkering around with all the various parameters necessary to operate it in
our application.

I should also mention that the system I install not only needs to manage
fuel delivery, but spark control as well. Others are/would be satisfied
with fuel management only.

Paul Bartz

From: Patrick.Flowers
[mailto:Patrick.Flowers]
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 1999 1:47 PM

Paul,

Did you look into the Holly or Accel systems or are you only considering
those systems purpose-built for the GMC?

>
> Based on my research, I've been looking at and gathering info
> on the Howell and Turbo City systems.
 
Hoping to not anger the GMC gods...

Thought't I'd mention that I now have about 27k on the Rance EFI (It uses
Accell components/computer).

You have total setup control via laptop. Have done no tweaking for many
moons. Next trip I'll be monitoring/tweaking enroute.

Yes it costs more than TBI, but I like it much better :-)
...maybe even enough to put the ol' Howell into the Swap 'n Shop soon [g].

Heinz
http://www.bytedesigns.com/gmc/ranceefi.htm

> Patrick:
>
> Only those purpose-built and more importantly to me, those that other
owners
> already have proven, positive experience with.
>
> >From my discussions with Leigh Harrison on his work on fine tuning his
port
> system and the troubles I'm aware of that owners have experienced with
some
> of the TBI systems, I don't want to get into a system that requires
> tinkering around with all the various parameters necessary to operate it
in
> our application.
>
> I should also mention that the system I install not only needs to manage
> fuel delivery, but spark control as well. Others are/would be satisfied
> with fuel management only.
>
> Paul Bartz
>
> From: Patrick.Flowers
> [mailto:Patrick.Flowers]
> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 1999 1:47 PM
>
> Paul,
>
> Did you look into the Holly or Accel systems or are you only considering
> those systems purpose-built for the GMC?
>

> >
> > Based on my research, I've been looking at and gathering info
> > on the Howell and Turbo City systems.
>
 
> Thought't I'd mention that I now have about 27k on the Rance EFI (It uses
> Accell components/computer).
>
> You have total setup control via laptop. Have done no tweaking for many
> moons. Next trip I'll be monitoring/tweaking enroute.
>

Heinz, does the Accel system control ignition timing also, or strictly fuel?
For that matter, do any of them control ignition other than having a
detonation detector to retard the timing? Is there any good info on this
anywhere?

Thanks,

Travis
 
Travis:

Did you not catch my earlier e-mail discussing spark control?? Same thing
as ignition timing. With the Howell TBI system it's optional. Standard
with the Turbo City kit.

Paul Bartz

From: Travis Martin [mailto:travism]
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 1999 5:17 PM

Heinz, does the Accel system control ignition timing also, or strictly fuel?
For that matter, do any of them control ignition other than having a
detonation detector to retard the timing? Is there any good info on this
anywhere?
 
Rance could probably answer your questions in a flash.
I'll dig the manual out as I need to refresh myself anyways :-) and will
post additional info later.

I know that you can set the advance at various RPM and the knock sensor will
"adjust" if you get carried away.

Mr Gasket may have Accell info on their website.

Heinz

> > Thought't I'd mention that I now have about 27k on the Rance EFI (It
uses
> > Accell components/computer).
> >
> > You have total setup control via laptop. Have done no tweaking for many
> > moons. Next trip I'll be monitoring/tweaking enroute.
> >
>
> Heinz, does the Accel system control ignition timing also, or strictly
fuel?
> For that matter, do any of them control ignition other than having a
> detonation detector to retard the timing? Is there any good info on this
> anywhere?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Travis
>
 
> Did you not catch my earlier e-mail discussing spark control?? Same thing
> as ignition timing. With the Howell TBI system it's optional. Standard
> with the Turbo City kit.

I must have missed that part, Paul; thanks. Is the Turbo City kit also the
Accel hardware? It looks similar on the Turbo City site. Accel has a pretty
good description on their (Accel) site.

But I'm still not really clear on to what extent the ignition is controlled.
As I understand it, some of the advanced OEM systems in the last couple of
years time each cylinder for optimum; are any of the retrofit systems we've
mentioned that far along, or is it pretty much still mechanical control with
electronic monitoring/prevention of detonation?

Travis
 
Hi Travis. My nephew in Germany just won his company award for the year! He is
an electrical and automotive engineer. He was given 50,000 Marks. He is now
in China at the present time repairing all the VW companies there with his
invention. He does something with fuel injection, timing, a compute that
monitors air and exhaust and ???? plus his catalytic converter. He took his 2
liter Opal and in horse power had it developed 400 horses. Sounds unbelievable
but my son who designed the guidance system for the NASA Life Boat drove the car
when he was in Germany this last year. Chuck

> Although I feel port injection is the
> > ultimate, the biggest draw back to me is justifying the cost vs. TBI and
> its
> > benefits
>
> I've given this a little thought myself. 'Way back 25 or so years ago when I
> first began seriously studying and restoring Corvettes, I was fascinated by
> the Rochester RamJet fuel injection system that first appeared on the '57
> Corvette and was available through the early '65 models. I well recall
> reading interviews with Zora Arkus-Duntov, one of the developers of this
> system and widely regarded as the "father of the Corvette." He stated that
> their research indicated that a timed, port injected system had the
> advantage of slightly better fuel economy, but that the constant flow
> system, which the Rochester was, yielded slightly better performance. As I
> recall, Mercedes was working on a mechanical timed system which saw
> production, but I know nothing about it. The Rochester system, with which I
> am very familiar, is a marvel of design; it is quite simply a mechanical
> analog computer. It was extremely efficient and quite reliable if left
> alone; unfortunately, hordes of tinkerers decided it was junk, so they
> didn't have the reputation they deserved. Probably some parallels in the GMC
> world.
>
> Of course nowdays digital electronics has changed everything. What used to
> be very hard to do with any precision is insanely easy...everything from
> adding machines and typewriters to alarm clocks have benefitted or been
> replaced. Fuel injection is no exception. But I wonder if the same
> principles--that is, timed port versus constant flow--have changed? TBI
> (Throttle Body Injection) is very easy to implement, since it is essentially
> a replacement for the carburetor. Chevrolet even used an adaptor plate to
> mate the two-barrel throttle body to the Quadrajet intake on the late 80's
> 454; this is readily available and would make it easy to put TBI on a GMC.
> But there are also companies doing some pretty elegant retrofitting by
> drilling the ports and installing mounting bosses for port injection.
>
> I would like to see someone make a stab at researching this and reporting
> the findings; frankly, it is completely out of my league time- and
> money-wise these days. I would refer you to www.tpis.com and to
> www.fuelinjection.com as both are very much into this. Fuelinjection.com has
> several pages of interesting explanations of the components and
> terminology...good reading for everyone.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Travis in Lubbock, Texas
 
> Hi Travis. My nephew in Germany just won his company award for the year!
He is
> an electrical and automotive engineer. He was given 50,000 Marks. He
is now
> in China at the present time repairing all the VW companies there with
his
> invention. He does something with fuel injection, timing, a compute that
> monitors air and exhaust and ???? plus his catalytic converter. He took
his 2
> liter Opal and in horse power had it developed 400 horses. Sounds
unbelievable
> but my son who designed the guidance system for the NASA Life Boat drove
the car
> when he was in Germany this last year. Chuck

Sounds interesting, Chuck; must be some bright boys in your gene pool. 400
horsepower from 2 liters is no mean feat!

Travis
 
>Chuck -- why don't you turn him loose on your GMC engine and let us
all >know the results? Emery Stora

The Kid sounds pretty good to me... if he can get 400 horses out of
that Opel,
1000 horses or more... should be easy on one of ours. Yeah, fly him
in for the weekend!

Regards,
John 74 Glacier DC GMC
 
Travis:

Ooce again Travis, did you not catch my earlier e-mail?? I mentioned that
the Turbo City kit components, like Howell's, use GM components, as used
their pickups from ~ 85-91 vintage.

The ignition is controlled by the kit computer in conjunction with a knock
sensor. To make it work, you replace the original distributor, which is
vacumn operated with a non-vacumn operated distributer. Turbo City
recommends one from an 81-85 Olds V-8 engine (307 cid).

Paul Bartz

From: Travis Martin
Sent: 9/9/99 6:02 PM

> Did you not catch my earlier e-mail discussing spark control?? Same
thing
> as ignition timing. With the Howell TBI system it's optional.
Standard
> with the Turbo City kit.

I must have missed that part, Paul; thanks. Is the Turbo City kit also
the
Accel hardware? It looks similar on the Turbo City site. Accel has a
pretty
good description on their (Accel) site.

But I'm still not really clear on to what extent the ignition is
controlled.
As I understand it, some of the advanced OEM systems in the last couple
of
years time each cylinder for optimum; are any of the retrofit systems
we've
mentioned that far along, or is it pretty much still mechanical control
with
electronic monitoring/prevention of detonation?

Travis
 
Jim (son) and I have already thought of that. If he gets over here that will be
a number one priority. His wife and baby don't seem him much. His dad is
building his house for him. He was supposed to help. But he is tied up in
China. I have written him about just that very thing, along the time the net
wanted to break the land speed record. Hannas sister is due here the 23 of
October after we get back from the GMC NM Balloon thing, she will be here
through the winter. Regards Chuck

>
> He is
> an electrical and automotive engineer >>
>
> Chuck -- why don't you turn him loose on your GMC engine and let us all know
> the results?
>
> Emery Stora
> 77 Kingsley
> Santa Fe, NM
 
Travis,

This company is heavy into computer controlled ignition and has an
interesting site.

http://www.electromotive-inc.com/

Pictures of Leigh's engine on Pat's site show similar ignition components
which perhaps are from this source.

It might be possible to do the ignition part from a separate vendor.

Don Miller

> But I'm still not really clear on to what extent the ignition is
controlled.
> As I understand it, some of the advanced OEM systems in the last couple of
> years time each cylinder for optimum; are any of the retrofit systems
we've
> mentioned that far along, or is it pretty much still mechanical control
with
> electronic monitoring/prevention of detonation?
>
> Travis
>