And now for a little side ways

[mike sadlon]

If you have been following me, you know I am on a quest to find a bolt in crate motor answer to our lack of engine future availability.

I posted a link to the HT383. I believe it could be the answer. And I will have a kit with pan and front mounts my the end of the month.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/gm-ht383-crate-small-block-tune-up/

There have been requests for a more modern transmission. I have done tons of research and I may have an answer, but it does go sideways. The experts I
talked to say the 4T80e will live a very long life behind the HT383. they are cheap and plentiful. The people I talked to said find a 60,000 take out
in the $500 price range fill it with synthic fluid and run it. Rebuilds are expensive because they almost never need them. The trans is available with
a 3.71 gear and even in OD the HT383 should make enough torque to run down the road at 2500 rpm. Controllers are available. This is a little more
development than I can afford to do on my own. There will be a lot to figure out. But things like CV joints and axles can be done all GM. Probably the
worst will be having to go with electric fans. But I believe with a modern aluminum radiator it can be done. FYI the LS will not fit in front of the
4T80e. and only the 5.3 LS4 fits in front of the 4t65E-HD, and my experts say that trans won't live in our application. Who want to get involved?

 

[josh r.]

I am new to the GMC motorhome world and this is my first front wheel drive vehicle, but my question is why not put in a 1 ton duramax 4X4 setup
without the rear drive shaft. I'm sure it has something to do with making it fit.
--
1978 Royale 403

 

[Keith V]

The real question is why?

Thats a lot of work and money to fix something thats not broken.

BTW, I think everyone goes through the 'lets put a new engine in the GMC' phase, I know I did...

________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of Josh R.
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2017 7:58:28 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] And now for a little side ways

I am new to the GMC motorhome world and this is my first front wheel drive vehicle, but my question is why not put in a 1 ton duramax 4X4 setup
without the rear drive shaft. I'm sure it has something to do with making it fit.
--
1978 Royale 403

_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org

 

[johnny]

It is the 'hot rod' spirit, and it ought to be nurtured, not denigrated. I'm all for somebody else doing mods if that's their game, I'll watch with
interest. I've seen several swaps (two Diesels and several Cads) and they seem to do well. They also took a LOT of time and effort, or at shop rates
a LOT of money. If I manage to lunch the mill in my coach, I'll go for another 455, it's relatively cheap and easy. Yall go for the swaps.
Please note, one of my toads is a Ranger with a whacked - out to the max 302 engine which I got in trade a couple of years ago. I love it, but not
enough to have done the swap myself.

--johnny

--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

 

[mike sadlon]

I would love to say that this is in the "hot rod spirit". The truth is Jim Bounds and Jeff Sirum are having a hard time getting engines rebuilt. Come
to a Sunshine Statesmen rally and spend time with them. The shops they are using take time to produce rebuilt engine, and they are dropping faster
then they can get them done. That's not even taking in the about 20% return that some shops seems to be getting. At $7500 per engine rebuild, there is
some room for a new approach.

Jim mainly but even Jeff would like a BRAND NEW ENGINE with a factory warranty to install in customer coaches. Jim is always looking at new things,
look at the 350 Olds they are doing. But that is still a rebuilt 35+ year old engine.

Looking at Jegs, they will sell you the HT383 with 600 hp Fitech and Ignition for around $5600. throw in a New compete GM accessary drive(serpentine)
for $1000 an install kit from me, and you have yourself a lot of NEW on a 40 year old coach. For about the same money as a rebuilt 455 longblock.

Stick around for more fun!

 

[Ron Clark]

Will it run on regular gasohol with its 9.1 compression ratio?

RonC

On Wed, 07 Jun 2017 06:14:29 -0600 Mike Sadlon
writes:
> If you have been following me, you know I am on a quest to find a
> bolt in crate motor answer to our lack of engine future
> availability.
>
> I posted a link to the HT383. I believe it could be the answer. And
> I will have a kit with pan and front mounts my the end of the
> month.
>
>
> http://www.hotrod.com/articles/gm-ht383-crate-small-block-tune-up/
>
>
> There have been requests for a more modern transmission. I have done
> tons of research and I may have an answer, but it does go sideways.
> The experts I
> talked to say the 4T80e will live a very long life behind the HT383.
> they are cheap and plentiful. The people I talked to said find a
> 60,000 take out
> in the $500 price range fill it with synthic fluid and run it.
> Rebuilds are expensive because they almost never need them. The
> trans is available with
> a 3.71 gear and even in OD the HT383 should make enough torque to
> run down the road at 2500 rpm. Controllers are available. This is a
> little more
> development than I can afford to do on my own. There will be a lot
> to figure out. But things like CV joints and axles can be done all
> GM. Probably the
> worst will be having to go with electric fans. But I believe with a
> modern aluminum radiator it can be done. FYI the LS will not fit in
> front of the
> 4T80e. and only the 5.3 LS4 fits in front of the 4t65E-HD, and my
> experts say that trans won't live in our application. Who want to
> get involved?
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

Ron & Linda Clark
North Plains, ORYGUN
1978 Eleganza II

 

[mike sadlon]

RonC, according to GM, yes, fastburn heads help reduce detonation. but as always, your tune may vary.

Jim and Emery, most of what Jeff and Jim talked about is that so many parts on the motors are junk. I don't dismiss your $4000 for rebuild on a
rebuildable motor. What they are seeing; is block won't take a bore add $500. Crank has already been turned replacement $500. Heads major work seats
valves add $500. intake needs work add $500 to $800 for new intake. Balancer shot, add $100. New water pump $100. new or rebuilt distributor. $150.

Customers have a hard time with, "you told me $5000, and now you add $2300 to your quote". It's just easier to add it all in.

And it is still a rebuilt engine.

 

[Jim Hupy]

Mike, not intentionally trying to argue with you, BUT, how much torque and
horsepower does your intended engine make at 2000 rpm? Between there and
3000 rpm is where the Olds engine was intended to run. 3200 on my 403 with
3:70 final drive gearing is 70+ mph. Don't know how much faster we need to
push these coaches. As for these castings, I will take a 40 year old High
Nickel content Olds block over a soft iron Chevrolet block anyday,
especially with powdered connecting rods. Just my way of looking at it.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

> RonC, according to GM, yes, fastburn heads help reduce detonation. but as
> always, your tune may vary.
>
> Jim and Emery, most of what Jeff and Jim talked about is that so many
> parts on the motors are junk. I don't dismiss your $4000 for rebuild on a
> rebuildable motor. What they are seeing; is block won't take a bore add
> $500. Crank has already been turned replacement $500. Heads major work seats
> valves add $500. intake needs work add $500 to $800 for new intake.
> Balancer shot, add $100. New water pump $100. new or rebuilt distributor.
> $150.
>
> Customers have a hard time with, "you told me $5000, and now you add
> $2300 to your quote". It's just easier to add it all in.
>
> And it is still a rebuilt engine.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[mike sadlon]

Jim, I don't think arguing at all, just a good healthy discussion.

http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/small-block-ht-383

Dyno sheet is on the link. I did a lot of research to find a dyno sheet for a period correct 455. It is within 5% across the board. That's the main
reason I think this would be the best NEW motor.

Over 400 across the range.

If you have a NOS 40 year old motor hidden somewhere let me know.

Me, on the rods, I want new, engineered to do the job. If possible. Not a piece of metal with 2,700,000,000 cycles on it.

I think that's the number of cycles on rod in a 150,000 mile motor. Your number may vary.

 

[Jim Hupy]

Reason I mentioned the rods is, the powdered rods are not happy campers in
heavily laden engines. The forged "I" beam rods that the Olds used are hell
for strong, yet I have seen more than a few of them out of round from
compression loading in motor home service. So, when I spec the rods, I pay
a lot of attention to them. The 2 bolt mains hold up really well at the
rpms we run the engines, even in the 403's with windowed main webs. Again
that speaks really well for hi-nickel castings.
When GM was making the diesel engines for HUMVEES, they elected to go
for soft iron blocks to extend tooling life during manufacturing. GM mfg
diesels blew up left and right even with governors that limited power
output. When AM GENERAL took over manufacturing of the diesels, one of the
first things they did was to go to a hi-nickel casting. Then they spent a
whole bunch of money on engineering to fix weaknesses in those engines.
They did a whole bunch of "test it until you destroy it" dyno work until
the reliability improved enough to pass and exceed military specs.
GM gasoline big block truck engines made in the Tonawanda plant have a
nickname that is well earned. I am sure that you have heard it more than
once.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403

> Jim, I don't think arguing at all, just a good healthy discussion.
>
> http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/small-block-ht-383
>
> Dyno sheet is on the link. I did a lot of research to find a dyno sheet
> for a period correct 455. It is within 5% across the board. That's the main
> reason I think this would be the best NEW motor.
>
> Over 400 across the range.
>
> If you have a NOS 40 year old motor hidden somewhere let me know.
>
> Me, on the rods, I want new, engineered to do the job. If possible. Not a
> piece of metal with 2,700,000,000 cycles on it.
>
> I think that's the number of cycles on rod in a 150,000 mile motor. Your
> number may vary.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

 

[Rdenney]

If you are looking for investors (and I'm not one, so I'm being
unforgivably presumptuous with my comments), your business plan needs more
meat. What about motor mounts? Torque rod for a lateral engine? Maintenance
accessibility? Is the 383 so much more heat-efficient that it will solve
the electric fan issue? No electric-fan solution has yet been found for the
Olds engines. Is that crate engine built for bottom-end durability?

You have advisors telling you the transmission is appropriate for this
high-load, highway application. Has that been tested? Is the transmission
computer-controlled? What's the cost on the tranny, the control system, and
all the sensors? The tranny on my Ford retailed at $3800, not including the
controls. They also said they had never had to replace one--until mine.

What about all the parts needed to adapt the accessories? The serpentine
kit doesn't include wiring harness changes, for example, or new
air-conditioning hoses.

You've allowed $1000 at retail for your installation kit--even if you can
hit that in costs, how will you pay yourself?

Needless to say, I think a $7600 target for the engine is challenging
enough, but what about the (required) whole drivetrain? Just for
comparison, that $7600 engine plus $1500 for a transmission, $900 for a
final drive, $1500 for a front-end conversion that includes half-shafts,
all adds up to about $12K (rounding up), not including labor. Manny's
diesel conversion, which I suspect is a break-even deal for Manny, is
nearly four times that, andit uses the existing TH425.

Part of being a sustainable replacement is that it has to stand on its own
commercially, and not depend on the installation artistry that has marked
many successful conversions. That is relevant if we are going to justify it
on the basis of what shops need.

Nobody doing this needs justification to attempt it just for the challenge,
but then we are making an investment in fun. That requires a different set
of goals for investors.

Rick "some questions to be ready to answer when asking 'who's in?'" Denney

> I would love to say that this is in the "hot rod spirit". The truth is Jim
> Bounds and Jeff Sirum are having a hard time getting engines rebuilt. Come
> to a Sunshine Statesmen rally and spend time with them. The shops they are
> using take time to produce rebuilt engine, and they are dropping faster
> then they can get them done. That's not even taking in the about 20%
> return that some shops seems to be getting. At $7500 per engine rebuild,
> there is
> some room for a new approach.
>
> Jim mainly but even Jeff would like a BRAND NEW ENGINE with a factory
> warranty to install in customer coaches. Jim is always looking at new
> things,
> look at the 350 Olds they are doing. But that is still a rebuilt 35+ year
> old engine.
>
> Looking at Jegs, they will sell you the HT383 with 600 hp Fitech and
> Ignition for around $5600. throw in a New compete GM accessary
> drive(serpentine)
> for $1000 an install kit from me, and you have yourself a lot of NEW on a
> 40 year old coach. For about the same money as a rebuilt 455 longblock.
>
> Stick around for more fun!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com

 

[LQQKatJon]

Going to be hard road to pave, but all a person can do is try and get a few out on the market and time will show how well it works.

I have seen a dave lenzi 8.1 and that is an impressive setup, but there is lots of cost and time.

It is scary how many blown up new engines we hear about, but i think there is an equal amount, if not way more of successful stories out there and
probably 1000 more you will never read about good or bad.

I do not know if I could think of 1 rebuilt engine that was totally stock. People usually change the cam, valves, add efi, and do other mods that
should help out how it runs, but you can complain the parts are 40 years old and dont last, you can argue that changing anything from oem soecs may
shorten the life of the original olds engine that was engineered in a way to be reliable

--
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/

 

[mike sadlon]

Rick
Two things going on.
1st, the HT383 in front of the 425. I, and others, where looking at a LS motor program for the GMC. It looked like it might work out as a great motor.
But it will not be an easy install. They need a simple bolt in motor. Find my older posts here or on Facebook, I detail the problems. As I did
research on motors with comparable HP and torque, I came across the HT383. It's built for trucks and has almost the same stock 455 numbers. And from
the article, space for some simple HP upgrades if you needed or wanted then. The trans adaptor, new oil pan, and front mount will be done soon. The
front drive I recommend from GM. Will it need new AC, PS, and radiator hoses of course. Those will be worked out and documented on the first install.
The great thing about GMC owners is they come from all walks of life. At one end, they will take their coach to one of the experts and pay to have the
best installed. I work with these experts on a regular bases. The other end is(hopefully), buy my pan and mounts and source their small block stuff
from wherever. These are hot rods to a lot of people, build it as you want. I just know that as far as I can tell, nobody has looked at the SBC
before. Technology has improved. I think it would be a great motor.

2nd, the 4T80E trans. I was looking at trans that the LS may bolt up to. GM put a 5.3 LS based engine in front of the 4t65E-HD is some midsize cars as
a performance option. 2003-2005 impala SS monte carlo and others. the LS4 in these cars is not the same as other LS engines. Could the LS4 be upgraded
to make the torque we need? Maybe. Can the trans be upgraded to work? the answer I got was short term yes, long term no. A lot of this info is talked
about a bunch in the Fiero world. These guys do crazy stuff.
I was lead to the 4t80e by a 4t65e expert. He said it's a great transmission. Same problem, LS doesn't work. Even the LS4 won't bolt up. And I really
didn't want to start a conversation about using a Northstar. The smallblock can be made to fit. there is an adaptor that's out there.
So, to answer the question is there a modern transmission that MAYBE able to work in a GMC. Short answer Yes.
What I was throwing out there was, How bad does someone want an overdrive 4 speed trans? I would be willing to work with someone on doing it. My
labor, your coach and parts money. Document everything and if it works build a kit for it. If not it's another 1 of a kind coach. I believe it will
work, but I agree, I don't know if AT THIS TIME, it's the way to go.

Mike

 

[johnny]

It comes down to are you gonna do the work, or pay a shop to do it? 22 hours isn't out of line for an engine swap of the same engine. Locally, 100 -
120 bucks an hour. Double that for a different engine wouldn't be out of line.So on the low side, ~~ 5 Large to get the thing put in. I can have the
455 built and installed for half the loot the crate motor costs, before I buy a transmission. If I look at a Tonowanda Turd out of a motor home at
75K miles - I've yet to see one go further in that service although my experience is limited - it has a hell of a ridge and it probably wants a
minimum .03 overbore to get it round and the walls parallel. Grind the crankshaft .02 on the rods and .03 on the mains, if it's even fixable.
A gmc friend just rebuilt his 455. Being something of a purist and doing it for fun, he's got the PlastiGauge for every bearing in the silly
thing, and every one is set to the middle of the spec.He says the hardest part of the build was sourcing main bearings. The crankshaft miked
standard, but nobody much stocks standard bearings.
There are some several race shops around here, I suspect any of them would do a good job on a 455.
Gonna do it yourself? Go for the swap if you're supplying the labor.
Maybe Hal StClair will give his estimate of the hours spent doing the Diesel conversion in his coach? It was done [properly, and in a way that the
next owner if he were to ssell it doesn't have to worry about what's gonna fall off, because it doesn't look like anything is. I suspect it's an eye
opener though.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

 

[jim kanomata1]

Peak torque at that high RPM will not work on our MH.
It's like putting in a racing cam.
You go ahead and do it, I'll wait the results.

> Rick
> Two things going on.
> 1st, the HT383 in front of the 425. I, and others, where looking at a LS
> motor program for the GMC. It looked like it might work out as a great
> motor.
> But it will not be an easy install. They need a simple bolt in motor. Find
> my older posts here or on Facebook, I detail the problems. As I did
> research on motors with comparable HP and torque, I came across the HT383.
> It's built for trucks and has almost the same stock 455 numbers. And from
> the article, space for some simple HP upgrades if you needed or wanted
> then. The trans adaptor, new oil pan, and front mount will be done soon. The
> front drive I recommend from GM. Will it need new AC, PS, and radiator
> hoses of course. Those will be worked out and documented on the first
> install.
> The great thing about GMC owners is they come from all walks of life. At
> one end, they will take their coach to one of the experts and pay to have
> the
> best installed. I work with these experts on a regular bases. The other
> end is(hopefully), buy my pan and mounts and source their small block stuff
> from wherever. These are hot rods to a lot of people, build it as you
> want. I just know that as far as I can tell, nobody has looked at the SBC
> before. Technology has improved. I think it would be a great motor.
>
> 2nd, the 4T80E trans. I was looking at trans that the LS may bolt up to.
> GM put a 5.3 LS based engine in front of the 4t65E-HD is some midsize cars
> as
> a performance option. 2003-2005 impala SS monte carlo and others. the LS4
> in these cars is not the same as other LS engines. Could the LS4 be upgraded
> to make the torque we need? Maybe. Can the trans be upgraded to work? the
> answer I got was short term yes, long term no. A lot of this info is talked
> about a bunch in the Fiero world. These guys do crazy stuff.
> I was lead to the 4t80e by a 4t65e expert. He said it's a great
> transmission. Same problem, LS doesn't work. Even the LS4 won't bolt up.
> And I really
> didn't want to start a conversation about using a Northstar. The
> smallblock can be made to fit. there is an adaptor that's out there.
> So, to answer the question is there a modern transmission that MAYBE able
> to work in a GMC. Short answer Yes.
> What I was throwing out there was, How bad does someone want an overdrive
> 4 speed trans? I would be willing to work with someone on doing it. My
> labor, your coach and parts money. Document everything and if it works
> build a kit for it. If not it's another 1 of a kind coach. I believe it will
> work, but I agree, I don't know if AT THIS TIME, it's the way to go.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>

--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502

 

[mike sadlon]

OK jim and Johnny, I don't disagree with your 22 hours. That's about what Jeff charges and I would think after 30 years they have it down.

But lets break that down. My motor Dun Blowed Up! How much time of that is diassamble? Removal, okay everybody has to do that. But when you are
removing to reinstall same motor, you MUST save everything, or it's an ADDED expense. 2-4 hrs. They remove junkyard engines for resale in minutes. We
will need to be a little cleaner than that.

Now, remove everything to the longblock to have it head to the machine shop. How much time? If there aren't rusted bolts and stupid stuff, 3-5 hour
easy. OK now you took the motor to the machine shop. unless it's in your backyard, at least an hour to load drive 5 minutes unload, talk a little
motor talk, it's all "time is money." Now go back and start the clean up. Intake front cover oil pan, how much time of the 22 hours is that? 3-5? If
it's not cleaned to the Nth degree, your new motor just Dun blowed up!
Longblock is back from the machine shop, Yeah! Lets dress it out. 3-5 hrs easy. Did you smoke check it for leaks when you put it together. Did you
miss that the timing cover slipped, because when it's leaking in your customers drive, he or she will know. Did you have it dyno'ed. My engine builder
will not warranty that is not dyno'ed. Too many chances of the failure on break-in. So you dress it out and take it back to have it broke in. another
5-8 hours. OK let's put in back in. It went great 3 hours. And I will give you It started right up!

My low estimate is 17 hours. We all know nothing on 40 year old coaches goes that well.

The other side. Remove motor. cut the exhaust at the manifolds because the new headers hook up down stream. leave the accessories on because new go
on. take them loose at the easy end. New motor on the floor. All tins are installed at the factory and smoke checked for leaks. Intake balancer
already on. Install NEW front accessories With new bolts, how nice was that. 2 hours. Install new engine and hook up. First time-I will give you 5-6
hours, after that 4-5. One long day but the customer is happy! No "the machine shop said it needs two more days, parts are back order." Ever heard
that?

So, OK maybe I do disagree! How can this not be the way to go!

I'm ready!

 

[mike sadlon]

Oh come on Jim

Peak torque at that high RPM will not work on our MH.
It's like putting in a racing cam.
You go ahead and do it, I'll wait the results.

Did you see the original stock numbers? 444 lbs tq at 3000.

The article was to show what could be done. Not how I would put it in the GMC.
That exactly what the stock 455 made in the day!
Take a look at he GM dyno sheet and show me a stock rebuild sheet. You have to have some somewhere.
Mike

 

[mike sadlon]

Jim
I really wish you would read the article all the way through.
You know as well as anyone we need a new engine available to us.

The Title of the article 500 at 4200. But read it all the way down.

Even at those number, it still made 434 at 2500 and torque average 2500-4800 474 lbs.

I am not promoting all the upgrades. But The GM warrantied number will work with our coaches, they have for 40 years.

Hoping your coming to Elkhart to see it's grand unveiling.

Mike

 

[johnny]

I'm not picking your idea. I merely point out, it isn't economically in the same ballpark as simply building the existing engine. As an exercise in
hotrodding it's prime. Go for it. I'll be intensely interested in how well it holds up to being lugged off every light.

--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased

 

[Bob Dunahugh]

Never saw a good reason to jump out of a perfectly good running air plane. OK. You won't see me sky dive. And putting in another power plant isn't something I'd want to jump into. At least not YET. I love seeing the creativity that goes into ideas like these. I pull heavier GVW's then about anyone. And I do it with a stock 403 Royale (12,000LBS), and sometimes an enclosed trailer at 9000LBS. The 3:70 FD gets it done. I don't win the drag race at the stop light. And I'm not the first one to the top of the mountain. But I can hold 80 mph on the flats of Iowa. I love new ideas on increasing torque, and ponies on the road race tracks. I'll try anything ONCE. Well, maybe twice. As to our GMC. It ain't broke. I'm not fixen. BUT. Let's see what happens. Bob Dunahugh